Eternal Security

[gadar perets]

The non explanation explanation.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

​

I bolded what I believe to be the key words. Someone who renounces YHWH's Son as his/her Saviour no longer loves YHWH. Such a person will not be numbered among Yeshua's brothers and sisters. One must continue to abide in Yeshua to receive the promises. It is easy to say people who renounce Yeshua do so because they never loved him in the first place, but that is just an assumption.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.​

I believe this wholeheartedly, but I do not believe in eternal security. All the things mentioned here are from external sources acting upon a believer with no affect. It does not mention the biggest threat which is from within the believer; free will. Any believer can choose to walk away from Yeshua and renounce him as his/her Savior, especially if they are in a weak spiritual condition due to their lack of a prayer life, a sinful lifestyle, not feeding on the Word, etc. The more carnally minded a person is, the more at risk they are for making the wrong choices in life, even choosing to no longer believe in Yeshua.

 

[CoreIssue]

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

​

I bolded what I believe to be the key words. Someone who renounces YHWH's Son as his/her Saviour no longer loves YHWH. Such a person will not be numbered among Yeshua's brothers and sisters. One must continue to abide in Yeshua to receive the promises. It is easy to say people who renounce Yeshua do so because they never loved him in the first place, but that is just an assumption.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.​

I believe this wholeheartedly, but I do not believe in eternal security. All the things mentioned here are from external sources acting upon a believer with no affect. It does not mention the biggest threat which is from within the believer; free will. Any believer can choose to walk away from Yeshua and renounce him as his/her Savior, especially if they are in a weak spiritual condition due to their lack of a prayer life, a sinful lifestyle, not feeding on the Word, etc. The more carnally minded a person is, the more at risk they are for making the wrong choices in life, even choosing to no longer believe in Yeshua.

The is an incomplete thought.

Those foreknown to love him were predestined, not might, not conditionally, but are all ready. You are adding to the verses something never said or hinted at.

Therefore, you also believe more angels can fall. Those in the New Jerusalem can fall. And those in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone can rise no one was born again until the resurrection of Christ.

The bible says those in the old testament could walk away from God. But that is ancient history. Not true anymore.

 

[gadar perets]

Those foreknown to love him were predestined, not might, not conditionally, but are all ready. You are adding to the verses something never said or hinted at.

If you are correct that those who will be saved were predestined to be saved, then the opposite must also be true; that all those who are not predestined to be saved are predestined to be lost. How does that harmonize with 1 Timothy 2:4 and other similar verses? Do you not believe in free will?

Therefore, you also believe more angels can fall. Those in the New Jerusalem can fall. And those in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone can rise no one was born again until the resurrection of Christ.

Not sure how any of this applies. Is there supposed to be a period after "rise"?

The bible says those in the old testament could walk away from God. But that is ancient history. Not true anymore.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.​

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not an Arian and it was a corrupted church that judged Arius.

Yes, I know. But I meant anything that says Jesus is not God Himself.
In case anyone doesn't know...here is what arianism is:


Arianism, in Christianity, the Christological(concerning the doctrine of Christ) position that Jesus, as the Son of God, was created by God. It was proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius and was popular throughout much of the Eastern and Western Roman empires, even after it was denounced as a heresy by the Council of Nicaea (325).

Arianism is often considered to be a form of Unitarian theology in that it stresses God’s unity at the expense of the notion of the Trinity, the doctrine that three distinct persons are united in one Godhead. Arius’s basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent (not dependent for its existence on anything else) and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot therefore be the self-existent and immutable God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable, must, therefore, be deemed a creature who has been called into existence out of nothing and has had a beginning. Moreover, the Son can have no direct knowledge of the Father, since the Son is finite and of a different order of existence.

According to its opponents, especially the bishopAthanasius, Arius’s teaching reduced the Son to a demigod, reintroduced polytheism (since worship of the Son was not abandoned), and undermined the Christian concept of redemption, since only he who was truly God could be deemed to have reconciledhumanity to the Godhead.

source: Arianism | Christianity

A false teaching. The "elohim" of Psalm 82 are not "gods". The Psalm refers to the mighty men of Israel who were not walking justly. Yeshua quoted verse 6 in John 10:34, but in verse 35 he says, "If he called them [elohim], unto whom the word of [Elohim] came ...". The Word of Elohim did not come to "gods" or to "angels". It came to men, in particular the mighty men of Israel.

The article stated that men could also be elohim. I don't pretend to know much about this.

I do not accept those letters as authentic. Do some research on whether or not they are third century forgeries.

There are those that consider the philosopher Justin Martyr a "semi-gnostic heretic and an apostate". He also wrote well after Paul died and was therefore living at a time when wolves spared not the flock. I consider him a false teacher because he teaches that the "Lord of hosts" is the Son.

Not all the church fathers agreed on every single concept...much as we don't agree on everything today. However, they did all agree that Jesus is God.
I also know that some were gnostics, but not the ones mentioned by me.

I guess we could post what we want about Justin Martyr. Here's one example:

Justin Martyr (Latin: Iustinus Martyr) was an early Christian apologist, and is regarded as the foremost interpreter of the theory of the Logos in the 2nd century.[2] He was martyred, alongside some of his students, and is considered a saint by the Roman Catholic Church,[3] the Anglican Church,[4] the Eastern Orthodox Church,[5] and the Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Most of his works are lost, but two apologies and a dialogue did survive. The First Apology, his most well known text, passionately defends the morality of the Christian life, and provides various ethical and philosophical arguments to convince the Roman emperor, Antoninus, to abandon the persecution of the fledgling sect. Further, he also indicates, as St Augustine did regarding the "true religion" that predated Christianity,[6] that the "seeds of Christianity" (manifestations of the Logos acting in history) actually predated Christ's incarnation. This notion allows him to claim many historical Greek philosophers (including Socrates and Plato), in whose works he was well studied, as unknowing Christians.

source: Justin Martyr - Wikipedia



Maybe you like Polycarp better? Or maybe none of them since they don't agree with you?


Polycarp (AD 69–155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.[1]

 

[GodsGrace]

The is an incomplete thought.

Those foreknown to love him were predestined, not might, not conditionally, but are all ready. You are adding to the verses something never said or hinted at.

Therefore, you also believe more angels can fall. Those in the New Jerusalem can fall. And those in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone can rise no one was born again until the resurrection of Christ.

The bible says those in the old testament could walk away from God. But that is ancient history. Not true anymore.

Just as I thought.
Afraid to speak to me?

So we're to ignore the O.T. because it does not apply to us?
Deuteronomy 8:3 We will live by every word that comes out of the mouth of God.

This was repeated by Jesus in the New Testament,
Mathew 4:4

It's a true statement for both the O.T. and the N.T.

Only certain laws from the O.T. have been abolished and we know what they are.

And God chose us before the beginning of time?
So are YOU one of the lucky ones?
How do you know for sure?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Just as I thought.
Afraid to speak to me?

So we're to ignore the O.T. because it does not apply to us?
Deuteronomy 8:3 We will live by every word that comes out of the mouth of God.

This was repeated by Jesus in the New Testament,
Mathew 4:4

It's a true statement for both the O.T. and the N.T.

Only certain laws from the O.T. have been abolished and we know what they are.

And God chose us before the beginning of time?
So are YOU one of the lucky ones?
How do you know for sure?

CoreIssue will not reply when backed into a corner....I have yet to figure out which truth He actually follows....most of his posts are links from Google Search as his reliable source....I have challenged him to just use scripture to back up his statements....but he accused me of being lazy or unwilling to search for the truth myself....these people who come here puffed up in their own knowledge and completely convinced it is the truth are the ones I feel sadness for....I can almost see Jesus saying to the Pharisees and Saducees….
"Knowledge Puffs Up, But Love Builds Up" - Ministry Magazine
"Knowledge Puffs Up, But Love Builds Up"
Knowledge alone leads to pride, to lack of consideration, to exploitation. As we leave the Seminary and go into the field, let us, with all knowledge, make certain that we have love, for "if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, . . . but have not love, I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:1-3).
This article is a quick read but powerful and enriching in the teaching of knowledge and love.

 

[GodsGrace]

CoreIssue will not reply when backed into a corner....I have yet to figure out which truth He actually follows....most of his posts are links from Google Search as his reliable source....I have challenged him to just use scripture to back up his statements....but he accused me of being lazy or unwilling to search for the truth myself....these people who come here puffed up in their own knowledge and completely convinced it is the truth are the ones I feel sadness for....I can almost see Jesus saying to the Pharisees and Saducees….
"Knowledge Puffs Up, But Love Builds Up" - Ministry Magazine
"Knowledge Puffs Up, But Love Builds Up"
Knowledge alone leads to pride, to lack of consideration, to exploitation. As we leave the Seminary and go into the field, let us, with all knowledge, make certain that we have love, for "if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, . . . but have not love, I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:1-3).
This article is a quick read but powerful and enriching in the teaching of knowledge and love.

Do Not Destroy Concrete Images

Once I've spoken a little about biblical beliefs, I tend to let the subject go...
All except one: Calvinism. I believe it's an affront to God and to other Christians.
I find most of this belief system are reluctant to admit to what denomination they belong and is it any wonder?

I do like to speak to them because one never knows when a word will penetrate and perhaps they might consider God's attributes afresh...of which God's attributes are.

Love
Mercy
Justice

None of which are recognizable in the God they serve...

Thanks for the post. I understand fully why you posted it.
(for me as much as for the other....)

 

[CoreIssue]

If you are correct that those who will be saved were predestined to be saved, then the opposite must also be true; that all those who are not predestined to be saved are predestined to be lost. How does that harmonize with 1 Timothy 2:4 and other similar verses? Do you not believe in free will?

It does not say Predestined to be saved. It says foreknown who would seek salvation in freewill.

You're going calvinistic here.

Not sure how any of this applies. Is there supposed to be a period after "rise"?

There is no rising from the lake of fire.

​

 

[GodsGrace]

To tell you the truth C, it sounds very much like you ARE calvinist.
Everything you said till this last post sounded just like Unconditional Election.
However, I AM happy to hear that you understand that God FOREKNEW who would be saved and He did not PREDESTINE some to be saved.

@CoreIssue

 

[CoreIssue]

CoreIssue will not reply when backed into a corner....I have yet to figure out which truth He actually follows....most of his posts are links from Google Search as his reliable source....I have challenged him to just use scripture to back up his statements....but he accused me of being lazy or unwilling to search for the truth myself....these people who come here puffed up in their own knowledge and completely convinced it is the truth are the ones I feel sadness for....I can almost see Jesus saying to the Pharisees and Saducees….
"Knowledge Puffs Up, But Love Builds Up" - Ministry Magazine
"Knowledge Puffs Up, But Love Builds Up"
Knowledge alone leads to pride, to lack of consideration, to exploitation. As we leave the Seminary and go into the field, let us, with all knowledge, make certain that we have love, for "if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, . . . but have not love, I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:1-3).
This article is a quick read but powerful and enriching in the teaching of knowledge and love.

I post links that are loaded with verses, linguistics, history, etc. Saves a ton of typing.

I copy and paste verses as well.

As well, I do not use Google. I use DuckDuckGo. Google is way to privacy invasive.

You want to see extensive typing by me?

Commentaries by CoreIssue

As for your link on love, I remind you that God indeed loves, but more than anything is just.

He has and will kill millions. And will send even more to the lake of fire and brimstone.

New International Version
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

New International Version
Therefore my people will go into exile for lack of understanding; those of high rank will die of hunger and the common people will be parched with thirst.

Embracing error is not loving, but condemning.

 

[CoreIssue]

To tell you the truth C, it sounds very much like you ARE calvinist.
Everything you said till this last post sounded just like Unconditional Election.
However, I AM happy to hear that you understand that God FOREKNEW who would be saved and He did not PREDESTINE some to be saved.

@CoreIssue

How you got Calvin out me I don't know.

I'm Secure Armenianism. That means free will in finding Christ and eternal security thereafter.

How anyone can believe God predestines someone to Hell is inconceivable to me.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I post links that are loaded with verses, linguistics, history, etc. Saves a ton of typing.

I copy and paste verses as well.

As well, I do not use Google. I use DuckDuckGo. Google is way to privacy invasive.

You want to see extensive typing by me?

Commentaries by CoreIssue

As for your link on love, I remind you that God indeed loves, but more than anything is just.

He has and will kill millions. And will send even more to the lake of fire and brimstone.

New International Version
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

New International Version
Therefore my people will go into exile for lack of understanding; those of high rank will die of hunger and the common people will be parched with thirst.

Embracing error is not loving, but condemning.

Well, here we are back to the same debate....okay let's look at our beliefs as this.....each of us are on a different level of spiritual growth....the Holy Spirit is the one who guides us into all truth....so what you hold fast to as the truth of God's Word and what I hold fast to differ maybe only in terms of maturity in our spiritual knowledge....so I propose that your beliefs are based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to you and My beliefs are based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me...…
We each are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling....there are 3 main issues that all must agree on..
1. God is the Creator of all things
2. Jesus is the Lamb of God who was slain and crucified for our sins and we must accept Him as our Lord and Saviour to be saved
3. The Bible is the written Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I post links that are loaded with verses, linguistics, history, etc. Saves a ton of typing.

I copy and paste verses as well.

As well, I do not use Google. I use DuckDuckGo. Google is way to privacy invasive.

You want to see extensive typing by me?

Commentaries by CoreIssue

As for your link on love, I remind you that God indeed loves, but more than anything is just.

He has and will kill millions. And will send even more to the lake of fire and brimstone.

New International Version
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

New International Version
Therefore my people will go into exile for lack of understanding; those of high rank will die of hunger and the common people will be parched with thirst.

Embracing error is not loving, but condemning.

I'm reading Not Heaven or Hell from your links.
It's very interesting....

But you have to understand that we here don't know you and would like to.
It doesn't work through osmosis!!

 

[GodsGrace]

How you got Calvin out me I don't know.

I'm Secure Armenianism. That means free will in finding Christ and eternal security thereafter.

How anyone can believe God predestines someone to Hell is inconceivable to me.

You kept talking about predestination.
God predestines HOW we will be saved, not WHO will be saved.

Anyway, I hope you speak up more in the future so we could get to know you.
You sure did talk a lot in that other place!!

 

[CoreIssue]

Well, here we are back to the same debate....okay let's look at our beliefs as this.....each of us are on a different level of spiritual growth....the Holy Spirit is the one who guides us into all truth....so what you hold fast to as the truth of God's Word and what I hold fast to differ maybe only in terms of maturity in our spiritual knowledge....so I propose that your beliefs are based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to you and My beliefs are based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me...…
We each are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling....there are 3 main issues that all must agree on..
1. God is the Creator of all things
2. Jesus is the Lamb of God who was slain and crucified for our sins and we must accept Him as our Lord and Saviour to be saved
3. The Bible is the written Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit.

So God has different truths?

 

[CoreIssue]

You kept talking about predestination.
God predestines HOW we will be saved, not WHO will be saved.

Anyway, I hope you speak up more in the future so we could get to know you.
You sure did talk a lot in that other place!!

I founded and own CTZ. It is over 12 years old.

God knows who want him and ensure they find him.

As well, God predestines the eternal future of those who are saved.

The bible does not limit predestination to salvation.

 

[Heart2Soul]

So God has different truths?

How can you know the hidden wisdom of God as truth unless the Holy Spirit opens up your understanding of it? Line upon line, precept upon precept.….so basically it is like one person who is a newborn babe in Christ is like a kindergartner in understanding....just learning the simple ABC's......another has grown into a deeper wisdom and then those who are fully mature are the ones who are able to rightly divide the truth, humbly apply it, and with love teach those who are still growing.

 

[CoreIssue]

How can you know the hidden wisdom of God as truth unless the Holy Spirit opens up your understanding of it? Line upon line, precept upon precept.….so basically it is like one person who is a newborn babe in Christ is like a kindergartner in understanding....just learning the simple ABC's......another has grown into a deeper wisdom and then those who are fully mature are the ones who are able to rightly divide the truth, humbly apply it, and with love teach those who are still growing.

Now you're talking sanctification.

Of course the bible has multiple levels of knowledge. But when you start talking hidden knowledge you just crossed over into Gnosticism.

 

[CoreIssue]

Gaining deeper understanding require study, prayer, etc.

Just like the things we do in life. You have to grow in knowledge, experience and understanding.

Nothing in the bible is hidden from us. We just lack skill and understanding to know what it means.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Now you're talking sanctification.

Of course the bible has multiple levels of knowledge. But when you start talking hidden knowledge you just crossed over into Gnosticism.

I will tell you exactly what I am....I am a child of the Most High God who seeks daily to know more of Him....He has given me the gift of discernment to recognize what spirit is operating through someone, the gift of prophesy specifically in seeing visions....
I am also called as an intercessor to pray for others, I am a spiritual warrior and have dealt with certain demons throughout my life, I am called and chosen to be His vessel to speak through as He wills....
I am a disciple of Christ....and He is raising me up to be a minister of His Word.....
I will rebuke your labels as a demon attacking my faith, false witness to the brethren. I declare Isaiah 54:17 as His Truth that I stand upon as my promise from Him that NO weapon formed against me shall prosper and every tongue that rise up against me shall be condemned, for this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their righteousness is of me.....
He has given me a spirit of boldness to speak out against false teachers, false doctrines and false prophets and to expose them as servants of the spirit of antichrist.
I do not have to prove my statements above for He will ensure His Word is performed as He purposed it to do.
I rebuke the spirit of divination operating here and throughout this forum attacking God's saints and causing them to become weary of defending His truth and leaving....I stand as a ready Warrior to fight the good fight of faith and by faith in His Word I use the authority given me through Christ Jesus and declare The Lord Rebuke You Satan, now leave.
I loose the spirit of love and peace in this forum and I ask Him to unite us in one mind and one accord, I pray for humility and love to abound throughout the sharing of His teachings on this forum.
I ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to those whose eyes are blind and ears are deaf to be opened to the revelation knowledge of His Word....
I declare that the carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot discern what is the mind of God.....therefore I pray that His people put on the Mind of Christ and to walk in the spirit, to be spiritually minded.