Eternal Security

[GodsGrace]

This is a good example of how deceptive these types of info sources are. Arius did not propose that Yeshua was created. Paul was inspired to write that to the Colossians long before Arius was born.

Colossians 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
​

Of all of YHWH's created creatures, the Son was the firstborn from the dead unto eternal life.


It is interesting that Polycarp wrote in Greek, but we no longer have the chapter which contains this quote in Greek. Instead, we have it in Latin. The following trnslation is found here;

² But may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Son of God, and our everlasting High Priest, build you up in faith and truth, and in all meekness, gentleness, patience, longsuffering, forbearance, and purity; and may He bestow on you a lot and portion among His saints, and on us with you, and on all who are under heaven, who shall believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, and in His Father, who “raised Him from the dead.
​

If the Greek had "theos" in it, it would be the same as Thomas' exclamation in John's gospel, "my Lord and my [theos]". Not a problem since "theos" is used of beings other the "God".

You didn't care for Ignatius and now you have a problem with Polycarp.
Even Polycarp, in the very letter you quote, advises the Philippians that they should listen to Ignatius (he was most respected in his time).

As far as Jesus being the first raised from the dead...this is true, but I don't quite understand what it has to do with Him being God...

Colossians 1:15-17
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Verse 15 is stating that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation...IOW He was present before anything else was created,,,just as John stated in John 1:3

Verse 16 veifies the above...all things were created by Jesus, the Logos, the Word of God -- all things were created THROUGH Him.

Verse 17 states that He holds all things together. God holds the universe together,,,nothing happens unless God wants it to. If Jesus does the same work as God...is He not God? Cannot only God do God's work?

Polycarp, in his letter, states that Jesus forgives our sins. Cannot only God forgive our sins? Isn't this why we dislike Catholic confession?

Colossians is, in my opinion, the best verses to confirm Jesus is God. It matches perfectly with what John said.

Also, I never could understand why this is so important to you.
Why insist on this so fervently?

 

[GodsGrace]

The key word in Colossians 1:15 is "creature" as far as my point is concerned. Yeshua is a "creature" (a created being). Try again.

I believe the KJV is the only bible that uses the word "creature".
Immediately in the next verse it says that He created everything that exists.
It's not plausible that those that wrote the N.T. could have thought that Jesus was created... I mean the Logos. Jesus WAS created, 2,000 years ago, but the Word of God is part of God.

 

[CoreIssue]

I believe the KJV is the only bible that uses the word "creature".
Immediately in the next verse it says that He created everything that exists.
It's not plausible that those that wrote the N.T. could have thought that Jesus was created... I mean the Logos. Jesus WAS created, 2,000 years ago, but the Word of God is part of God.

That is because creature is not correct to use. The KJV is loaded with such errors.

The Logos was not create because it says the Logos was with God and is God, a confirmation of the Trinity.

 

[justbyfaith]

The key word in Colossians 1:15 is "creature" as far as my point is concerned. Yeshua is a "creature" (a created being). Try again.

Yes, He was made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3 (kjv)). YHWH has a Maker (Isaiah 45:11).

 

[justbyfaith]

Does the word "elohim" always mean "God"? NO. Neither does the word "theos". Try learning some Hebrew and Greek rather than accusing me of being prideful.

The fact that you took it personally indicates that the "accusation" has some basis in reality.

 

[justbyfaith]

​

WHO said they are not saved???

What I said is that God predestined that WHEN we became saved we would be as Sons adopted through Jesus.

This does not speak about WHO will be saved.

What I was trying to say is that being saved and being adopted as sons are practically synonymous.

Therefore, when we are predestinated to be adopted as sons, we are predestinated unto salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is because creature is not correct to use. The KJV is loaded with such errors.

Actually, that is not an error in the kjv.

Jesus is human.

But firstborn does not mean that He was the first being to be created; it means that He has the preeminence over all other things (Colossians 1:18).

 

[gadar perets]

Good old KJV strikes again.


Colossians 1:15 New International Version (NIV)
The Supremacy of the Son of God
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 2937 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ktivsiß from (2936)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ktisis 3:1000,481
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ktis'-is Noun Feminine
Definition

1. the act of founding, establishing, building etc
   1. the act of creating, creation
   2. creation i.e. thing created
      1. of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation 1b
   3. anything created 1b
   4. after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called) 1b
   5. the sum or aggregate of things created
   6. institution, ordinance

It doesn't matter whether the word should be translated "creature" or "creation". Yeshua is either a creature or a part of creation (a creature). Notice how the corrupt paraphrase of the NIV adds the word "over" which is not in the Greek? The word πασης is in the genative meaning "of all", not "over all".

 

[gadar perets]

Sir you are not a saved Christian.
You still have a ways to go.
Only Jesus can save us and only God can can save.
Add them up and what do you got?
Two Gods?
Try again.

You are right. I am not a saved "Christian". I am a saved disciple of Yeshua. No, we don't have two Gods, but we do have two Saviors. YHWH is the ultimate Savior and He uses Yeshua to do that saving work making Yeshua our Savior as well.

 

[gadar perets]

Actually, that is not an error in the kjv.

Jesus is human.

But firstborn does not mean that He was the first being to be created; it means that He has the preeminence over all other things (Colossians 1:18).

He has the preeminence because he is the first creature born from the dead or the first living being of YHWH's creation to be born from the dead.

 

[gadar perets]

As far as Jesus being the first raised from the dead...this is true, but I don't quite understand what it has to do with Him being God...

It proves he is not "God", but only a creation of "God" (YHWH).

Colossians 1:15-17
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Verse 15 is stating that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation...IOW He was present before anything else was created,,,just as John stated in John 1:3

It doesn't say he is "the firstborn before all creation". The possessive "of" means he is part of the creation. Nor is John 1:3 talking about a person who trinitarians read into the text.

Verse 16 veifies the above...all things were created by Jesus, the Logos, the Word of God -- all things were created THROUGH Him.

What's it going to be? "By Jesus" or "through Jesus"? Verse 16 should read, "For IN him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

Verse 17 states that He holds all things together. God holds the universe together,,,nothing happens unless God wants it to. If Jesus does the same work as God...is He not God? Cannot only God do God's work?

It does not say "He holds all things together." It says all things are set together IN him. All of creation was put together with the Son in YHWH's plan.

Polycarp, in his letter, states that Jesus forgives our sins. Cannot only God forgive our sins? Isn't this why we dislike Catholic confession?

Anyone can forgive sins IF YHWH gives him that authority. YHWH gave all authority to His Son. He did not give that authority to Catholic priests.

Colossians is, in my opinion, the best verses to confirm Jesus is God. It matches perfectly with what John said.

That is the result of having it drilled into your mind year after year as well as the result of reading biased translations.

Also, I never could understand why this is so important to you.
Why insist on this so fervently?

To worship the Son as the only true God is idolatry plain and simple. Nor will I sit idly by while people rob YHWH of His glory and give it to His Son. The Son is deserving of all the glory that is rightly his (dying for the sins of the world, King of YHWH's Kingdom, everlasting High Priest, being the promised Messiah, etc.), but he is not to be given his Father's glory (the glory of creation, the promises made to the patriarchs, the exodus, the giving of Torah, the ultimate rulership of the Kingdom, etc.)

 

[gadar perets]

Yes, He was made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3 (kjv)). YHWH has a Maker (Isaiah 45:11).

Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith YHWH, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: Ask me of the things that are to come; concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me.
​

This verse is saying YHWH is not only the "Holy One of Israel", but He is also ISRAEL'S maker. YHWH has no maker. Yeshua has a maker (his Father YHWH).

 

[gadar perets]

The fact that you took it personally indicates that the "accusation" has some basis in reality.

Sick.

 

[CoreIssue]

It doesn't matter whether the word should be translated "creature" or "creation". Yeshua is either a creature or a part of creation (a creature). Notice how the corrupt paraphrase of the NIV adds the word "over" which is not in the Greek? The word πασης is in the genative meaning "of all", not "over all".

Here is the meaning of creature. Jesus is not a creature.


Strong's Number: 08318

Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
#rX from (08317)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Sherets TWOT - 2467a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
sheh'-rets Noun Masculine

Definition

1. teeming or swarming things, creepers, swarmers
   
   1. of insects, animals, small reptiles, quadrupeds

 

[gadar perets]

Here is the meaning of creature. Jesus is not a creature.


Strong's Number: 08318

Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
#rX from (08317)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Sherets TWOT - 2467a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
sheh'-rets Noun Masculine

Definition

1. teeming or swarming things, creepers, swarmers
   
   1. of insects, animals, small reptiles, quadrupeds

Why are you bringing up the meaning of a Hebrew word when we are talking about a Greek word? Here is Vine's definition;

<B-1,Noun,2937,ktisis>
primarily "the act of creating," or "the creative act in process," has this meaning in Rom_1:20; Gal_6:15. Like the English word "creation," it also signifies the product of the "creative" act, the "creature," as in Mar_16:15, RV; Rom_1:25; Rom_8:19; Col_1:15 etc.;
​

Here is Thayer's definition;

1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
1a) the act of creating, creation
1b) creation, i.e. thing created
1b1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
1b1a) anything created
1b1b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)
1b1c) the sum or aggregate of things created
1c) institution, ordinance​

 

[CoreIssue]

Why are you bringing up the meaning of a Hebrew word when we are talking about a Greek word? Here is Vine's definition;

<B-1,Noun,2937,ktisis>
primarily "the act of creating," or "the creative act in process," has this meaning in Rom_1:20; Gal_6:15. Like the English word "creation," it also signifies the product of the "creative" act, the "creature," as in Mar_16:15, RV; Rom_1:25; Rom_8:19; Col_1:15 etc.;
​

Here is Thayer's definition;

1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
1a) the act of creating, creation
1b) creation, i.e. thing created
1b1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
1b1a) anything created
1b1b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)
1b1c) the sum or aggregate of things created
1c) institution, ordinance​

And here is Strong's.

Strong's Number: 2937

Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ktivsiß from (2936)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ktisis 3:1000,481
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ktis'-is Noun Feminine
Definition

1. the act of founding, establishing, building etc
   1. the act of creating, creation
   2. creation i.e. thing created
      1. of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation 1b
   3. anything created 1b
   4. after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called) 1b
   5. the sum or aggregate of things created
   6. institution, ordinance

None of them support your use of creature.

Here what various versions use. A catholic one and KJV variations are the only ones using creature.

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are right. I am not a saved "Christian". I am a saved disciple of Yeshua. No, we don't have two Gods, but we do have two Saviors. YHWH is the ultimate Savior and He uses Yeshua to do that saving work making Yeshua our Savior as well.

There is no saviour besides YHWH. Isaiah 43:11.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sick.

Bless you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I founded and own CTZ. It is over 12 years old.

God knows who want him and ensure they find him.

As well, God predestines the eternal future of those who are saved.

The bible does not limit predestination to salvation.

Hi C,
I see you're all talked out !!
I THINK I agree with you...

Our future is predestines if we're saved in that we go to be with God,,,certainly some things in the bible ARE predestined --- for instance what some special persons were called to do. Example, Moses, Mary, even Pharoah. After all, God can do what He wants to do. I just like to make clear that I don't believe in any aspect of calvinism -- God did not predestine who would be saved and who would be lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is because creature is not correct to use. The KJV is loaded with such errors.

The Logos was not create because it says the Logos was with God and is God, a confirmation of the Trinity.

Agreed on both.
The KJV, although much revered by many, is full of incorrect translation. It's become necessary to have footnotes for the corrected words.