OVERCOMING

[CoreIssue]

You need to crack open a few standard theology books and study the doctrine of Christ. Then you will know how to ask the right questions.

And once again you defer to creeds.

I have read a lot of theological material over the years.

And instead of dealing with what I said, you tried to bait and switch with this post.

 

[Dave L]

And once again you defer to creeds.

I have read a lot of theological material over the years.

And instead of dealing with what I said, you tried to bait and switch with this post.

We have no basis for discussion if you do not think Jesus is God.

 

[CoreIssue]

We have no basis for discussion if you do not think Jesus is God.

And yet again you go back to the humanity of Jesus being God.

You are incapable of dealing with the reality in your thinking the first person of the Trinity created the second person of the Trinity. Therefore the second person is not eternal and God died on the cross.

 

[Dave L]

And yet again you go back to the humanity of Jesus being God.

You are incapable of dealing with the reality in your thinking the first person of the Trinity created the second person of the Trinity. Therefore the second person is not eternal and God died on the cross.

Jesus IS God.

“for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him. He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.” (Colossians 1:16–17) (NET)

“in these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world.” (Hebrews 1:2) (NET)

“And he says of the angels, “He makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire,”but of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:7–8) (NET)

“And, “You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. And they will all grow old like a garment, and like a robe you will fold them up and like a garment they will be changed, but you are the same and your years will never run out.”” (Hebrews 1:10–12) (NET)

“How blessed are the people who experience these things! How blessed are the people whose God is the LORD!” (Psalm 144:15) (NET)

“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) (NET)
----------------

“Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),” (Hebrews 2:14) (NET)

If Jesus was merely human, how could he share in humanity? It's like saying a man shares in being a man wich is meaningless. It only has meaning if God shares in humanity.

“Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.” (Hebrews 2:17) (NET)

How would you, being made like your relatives in every respect need mention? Isn't that a given? And how could any of your relatives die for the sins of the world if they are the world? This makes sense only if God is the subject who becomes human.

 

[bbyrd009]

And instead of dealing with what I said

sound familiar Dave?

 

[Taken]

yes, and He said "flesh and blood cannot inherit" too right, so we interpret that a certain way, forgetting that the kingdom is within you. Iow the first is a dialectic statement that actually means "flesh and blood inherits the kingdom," only it is intentionally put in such a way so as to be misinterpreted if one is bringing their improper premises/conclusions into the interp. We inherit spiritually, so "flesh and blood does not inherit" in that sense, but a play on words is being used iow
imo

The understanding is bigger than a few words expressed on a forum.

A physical inheritance of PARTICULAR men is LAND.

A spiritual inheritance GIVEN a man comes AFTER, a man is forgiven, his body crucified, his heart circumcised, his soul restored, his receiving the Seed of God, "his spirit" born again of Gods Seed, and THEN, Receiving the indwelling Spirit of God.
This man has received the UNSEEN, inheritance that that man is IN the Kingdom of God.

There shall ALSO be a kingdom of God ON Earth, a government, and the head of the government shall be JESUS, who shall rule the world FROM Jerusalem, (the same that was established as an everlasting throne for the King who rules over Gods People).

His Kingdom, specific LAND, shall be inhabited by THOSE who have already RECEIVED the SEED of God.....yet for 1,000 years, there will be Mortals outside of the Kingdom, who have not inherited.
Some of those Mortals, WILL also become include in the spiritual inheritance, and thus the Land inheritance.....some will not.

David was the Last KING of the Jews. Jesus, Lord God, shall be the next, and last, King of ALL who inhabit the earth.....WHO HAVE received the Spiritual inheritance....and thus the LAND inheritance.

Taking a scripture out of context, does not lead one to the knowledge and understanding.

EVERY individual, has a stake in what will become of them. And HOW one obtains inheritances, does not apply equally, BY THEIR KNOWLEDGE.

Ultimately, It is by and through JESUS....
Who PROVIDES what God promised.
IOW...Jesus is the one WHO FUFILLS.

Well, OT men didn't know that, did they?
Nor did OT men call on the NAME JESUS, did they?
Yet Gods POWER is not LIMITED by what MEN KNOW, does it?

God had a PLAN for OT men to be forgiven, saved, and receive inheritances.

God revealed a PLAN for NT men (JEWS) and (GENTILES0 to be forgiven, saved, and receive inheritances.

While Jews during, and shortly after JESUS' day on earth, began ACCEPTING, Gods Plan and Jesus as their Savior......ever notice...."THEM" being persecuted....and then STOP following after Gods Plan, and Jesus' Salvation?

What "about" "them" ? Are "they" abandoned? No. Jesus DID NOT ABOLISH THEIR LAWS.

There is a CAVEAT. Jews who "CONTINUE" under the LAW, WILL receive forgiveness, saved souls, quickened spirits (being it UNKNOWN/UNBELIEVED by them, it was BY and THROUGH the JESUS).

THAT ^ applies to Jews who continue under the Law....Just as their OT forefathers did, who became "saints" and entitled to recive their inheritance...

Some Jews, have even in this day, ACCEPT JESUS, as their Savior, (like in the day Jesus walked the earth). They do not call themselves "Christians", but rather Messaniac Jews.

While it is a majority of Gentiles Accepting Jesus as their Savior.....

Many Gentiles, do not.....and Many Jews do not......
A major difference among them is.....
Many Gentiles reject God....and Many Jews accept God.

Then there are Jews, who....do not accept Jesus, AND DO NOT, "continue" Under the Law.....<---- they, as well as Gentiles who do not accept God or Jesus.....
^....IF that IS their choice, until the end of their natural life, and they physically die, without having becom Accepting.....
They shall die IN their Sins, void of forgiveness or Conversion.....and shall lose out on having ANY inheritance.

It is not ALL about groups.....but rather Individuals, and what each individuals have chosen.

Not ALL ancient Hebrews or ancient Jews ACCEPTED GOD....they lose out, just like Gentiles who reject God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

Jesus IS God.

“for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him. He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.” (Colossians 1:16–17) (NET)

“in these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world.” (Hebrews 1:2) (NET)

“And he says of the angels, “He makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire,”but of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:7–8) (NET)

“And, “You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. And they will all grow old like a garment, and like a robe you will fold them up and like a garment they will be changed, but you are the same and your years will never run out.”” (Hebrews 1:10–12) (NET)

“How blessed are the people who experience these things! How blessed are the people whose God is the LORD!” (Psalm 144:15) (NET)

“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) (NET)
----------------

“Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),” (Hebrews 2:14) (NET)

If Jesus was merely human, how could he share in humanity? It's like saying a man shares in being a man wich is meaningless. It only has meaning if God shares in humanity.

“Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.” (Hebrews 2:17) (NET)

How would you, being made like your relatives in every respect need mention? Isn't that a given? And how could any of your relatives die for the sins of the world if they are the world? This makes sense only if God is the subject who becomes human.

You are incapable of dealing with the reality in your thinking the first person of the Trinity created the second person of the Trinity. Therefore the second person is not eternal and God died on the cross.

 

[Dave L]

You are incapable of dealing with the reality in your thinking the first person of the Trinity created the second person of the Trinity. Therefore the second person is not eternal and God died on the cross.

I did not say this, you did.

 

[CoreIssue]

I did not say this, you did.

You have said Christ is 100% God. That requires what I said is true, specifically spoken or not.

 

[Dave L]

You have said Christ is 100% God. That requires what I said is true, specifically spoken or not.

I agree with myself. What's the problem?

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, OT men didn't know that, did they?

yes, they had the same info we have, and grace was forwarded to them also

 

[CoreIssue]

I agree with myself. What's the problem?

Self indulgence and ego is not the way to understand the bible.

 

[Taken]

they saw Him come down the same way they saw Him go up too,

No, they did not see Him come down.
He came down to Mary's Womb, UNSEEN.

He shall come down UNSEEN "TO" the Clouds.
His Church (bodies of men, on earth, physically dead and physically alive) shall rise up and SEE HIM, Be with Him, IN THE CLOUDS.

While the the SAVED souls....SAINTS are IN Heaven....and Christs Church, are IN the clouds......
Tribulation is occuring ON EARTH.

Nearing the end of Tribulation ON EARTH,
Michael, armed with the WORD of God,
Battles with his Army of Holy Angels against Fallen Angels....Michaels Army prevails, the Fallen angels cast into Hell, for 1,000 years.

At the END of the Tribulation ON EARTH....
WHO IS THERE ON EARTH.

Scads of DEAD human bodies, who REJECTED God....and took the mark of the beast.
So, "THEY" will not SEE the Lord descending from the clouds.

And? What about the MEN, who ran out of their homes, and cities, and HID from taking the MARK of the beast? Nor have they committed to God or Christ.
THEY are still alive in their flesh bodies.

After the Tribulation... Mark 13:23

Jesus shall Descend FROM THE CLOUDS, TO Earth....and "THEY" shall SEE the "SON of MAN", "COMING" in great power and glory. (Light).

WHO are "THEY"...."THEY" on the earth, still living, who DID NOT take the MARK of the beast, and become killed by destruction upon the earth.

Why is it NOT "saints and Christ's Church" who SEE Jesus "COMING" ?

Because the Saints and Christ's Church are NOT ON THe earth.....THEIR "SEEING", would be JESUS" "GOING" (not Coming) to the earth.

THEY who See, the Son of Man "COMING" to the Earth....Instantly BELIEVE...."WHEN" they "SEE" Him "coming" with great power and glory.

THEY are a remnant Of Mortals, who survived through the Tribulation by HIDING, and shall repopulate the Earth for 1,000 years....

while Jesus and HIS PEOPLE, OCCUPY, LAND within HIS Kingdom, and Jesus OCCUPY the seat of world Government AS KING, IN Jerusalem.

Jesus' PEOPLE, will serve their KING, by mingling with MORTALS, spreading Gods Word.

The remaining MORTALS, will have small family, then city governments, with a head, and grow, and reproduce......just as in the beginning.

THe "head" of their ... family, clans, people...will be informed to PILGRIMAGE once a year TO Jerusalem..... then return and incorporated into their (family,clan,people) governments...to be directed according to Gods word.

The Mortals, "head" ... the very same WHO SAW, Jesus, the Son of Man descend from the
Clouds....WILL participate in such Pilmigrage and govern over their families, clans, people....accordingly..

As generations progress, men die, and less and less, will the new "head" of family, clans, Continue to Pilmigrage....and instead, do as before....Decide what "THEY" think is "good", and again....the People will begin, falling away from the TRUTH of God and His WAY.

At the end of the 1,000 years satan shall be loosed, allowed back on the earth......and "mortal men, designated as "head" over families, clans......WHO rejected following after Gods way......such men and their families, clan........shall be RIPE for the pickings to FOLLOW after satan.

Inanutshell....from the beginning of mortal mankind to the ending of mortal mankind....

Men who put their BELIEF and TRUST in the tiny Carnal Mind, instead of BELIEF and TRUST in thee Lord God.....

SHALL become forever separated FROM;
Thee Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

No, they did not see Him come down.
He came down to Mary's Womb, UNSEEN.

you are completely altering the v to suit your premises now wadr, the v says "you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up," so the coming down part is even future imperfect, see, and i am not a linguist i know zip about that until i go look in the Lex and find the Strong's word and then verify that yup, future imperfect tense (i think that is, might be future perfect now that i reflect, not gonna bother unless someone asks)

and if there is a response desired from within the homily below the snip i quoted i would just ask you to restate it, ty

 

[bbyrd009]

Self indulgence and ego is not the way to understand the bible.

and i guess Dave even agrees huh
with his mouth at the very least

We have no basis for discussion if you do not think Jesus is God.

but you do not "think" Jesus is God Dave, so there can be no discussion anyway, see

i hope you get me here, bc i am not trying to put you down,
you might be way better hearted than me regardless of any knowledge or lack of it, and your current beliefs are completely fine as far as i am concerned anyway

 

[Taken]

yes, they had the same info we have, and grace was forwarded to them also

I was not talking about Grace.
Grace is what Gods Gives.

Men in the OT did not HAVE the same Knowledge Before Jesus came to earth.

Eph 3:5
..in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men..

Eph 3:9
...which from the beginning of the world
"Hath been HID in God...

Col 1:26
...which hath been HID From the ages (4,000 years) and FROM generations (4,000 years).

BUT NOW (after 4,000 years), is made manifest (revealed).

Eph 9 ....Having made KNOWN unto us.

NOW (after 4,000) years Jesus reveals what was HIDDEN (knowledge).


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

you are completely altering the v to suit your premises now wadr, the v says "you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up," so the coming down part is even future imperfect, see, and i am not a linguist i know zip about that until i go look in the Lex and find the Strong's word and then verify that yup, future imperfect tense (i think that is, might be future perfect now that i reflect, not gonna bother unless someone asks)

and if there is a response desired from within the homily below the snip i quoted i would just ask you to restate it, ty

No I am not altering the verses....I am speaking about who that verse applies to.

It is not simply about reading the KNOWLEDGE/scriptural verses.....
the UNDERSTANDING of who it applies to is paramount.

Without Understanding...
Matt 15:16
Mark 7:18
Rom 1:31

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

NOW (after 4,000) years Jesus reveals what was HIDDEN (knowledge).

to all those singing "when we all get to heaven" i guess, right

 

[bbyrd009]

No I am not

the thing about Jesus coming down there being His literal birth is initially interesting, but the syntax just doesn't support that, those are put differently imo

No I am not altering the verses....I am speaking about who that verse applies to.

you are altering the v to make it apply like you want wadr, and making the statement said to them irrelevant to them in the process, it now usually becomes "you will see Him come down in the same way that they saw Him go up," but i guess your "coming down = His literal birth" is maybe adding a diff layer; unfortunately the "you will see Him come down" part makes that pretty unlikely imo
impossible, i mean

 

[Taken]

the thing about Jesus coming down there being His literal birth is initially interesting, but the syntax just doesn't support that, those are put differently imo

you are altering the v to make it apply like you want wadr, and making the statement said to them irrelevant to them in the process, it now usually becomes "you will see Him come down in the same way that they saw Him go up," but i guess your "coming down = His literal birth" is maybe adding a diff layer; unfortunately the "you will see Him come down" part makes that pretty unlikely imo
impossible, i mean

If you do not follow the ORDER and the Men involved during any particular generation....
Just throwing out verses...does not give an accurate understanding.

We are not on the same page.

Glory to God,
Taken