Has the RCC changed?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

B

brakelite

Guest
Has the Catholic church changed regarding religious freedom? Various pronouncements by recent popes suggest she has changed since the days of the dark ages, and if true, that can only be a good thing. What concerns me though is the fact that persecution by Catholics against those who disagreed with papal authority and doctrine, was not just the incidental practice of a few bad apples.

Described as one of Catholicisms greatest theologians, a 'doctor' of the church, Thomas Aquinas, dubbed a saint, wrote the following which suggests strongly that persecution against heretics, rather than the rare occasion, was in fact church policy, and remained so for a very long time.

“With regard to heretics two elements are to be considered, one element on their side, and the other on the part of the church. On their side is the sin whereby they have deserved, not only to be separated from the church by excommunication, but also to be banished from the world by death. For it is a much heavier offense to corrupt the faith, whereby the life of the soul is sustained, than to tamper with the coinage, which is an aid to temporal life. Hence if coiners or other malefactors are at once handed over by the secular princes to a just death, much more may heretics, immediately they are convicted of heresy, be not only excommunicated, but also justly done to die. But on the part of the church is mercy in view of the conversion of them that err; and therefore she does not condemn at once, but ‘after the first and second admonition,’ as the apostle teaches. After that, however, if the man is still found pertinacious, the church, having no hope of his conversion, provides for the safety of others, cutting him off from the church by the sentence of excommunication; and further she leaves him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated from the world by death.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Has the Catholic church changed regarding religious freedom? Various pronouncements by recent popes suggest she has changed since the days of the dark ages, and if true, that can only be a good thing. What concerns me though is the fact that persecution by Catholics against those who disagreed with papal authority and doctrine, was not just the incidental practice of a few bad apples.

Described as one of Catholicisms greatest theologians, a 'doctor' of the church, Thomas Aquinas, dubbed a saint, wrote the following which suggests strongly that persecution against heretics, rather than the rare occasion, was in fact church policy, and remained so for a very long time.

“With regard to heretics two elements are to be considered, one element on their side, and the other on the part of the church. On their side is the sin whereby they have deserved, not only to be separated from the church by excommunication, but also to be banished from the world by death. For it is a much heavier offense to corrupt the faith, whereby the life of the soul is sustained, than to tamper with the coinage, which is an aid to temporal life. Hence if coiners or other malefactors are at once handed over by the secular princes to a just death, much more may heretics, immediately they are convicted of heresy, be not only excommunicated, but also justly done to die. But on the part of the church is mercy in view of the conversion of them that err; and therefore she does not condemn at once, but ‘after the first and second admonition,’ as the apostle teaches. After that, however, if the man is still found pertinacious, the church, having no hope of his conversion, provides for the safety of others, cutting him off from the church by the sentence of excommunication; and further she leaves him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated from the world by death.”
Nice TRY - but St. Thomas Aquinas wasn't the Pope. Neither was he even a bishop.
He was a Dominican friar who was entitled to his own opinions - and that is ALL you have presented - his opinions.

If you bothered to actually R*E*A*D what you posted about him - you would recognize that this is his opinion - and NOT official Church practice. The Church's role here was EXCOMMUNICATION. The "Apostle" Aquinas was referring to is Paul, who preached on this.

Excommunication
simply rendered the person no longer protected by the Church because they were cut off.
Execution for heresy was ALWAYS as matter of state because they were considered rabble-rousers. This was bad for the economy because it destabilized the commoners of kingdoms. . .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marymog

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Has the Catholic church changed regarding religious freedom? Various pronouncements by recent popes suggest she has changed since the days of the dark ages, and if true, that can only be a good thing. What concerns me though is the fact that persecution by Catholics against those who disagreed with papal authority and doctrine, was not just the incidental practice of a few bad apples.

Described as one of Catholicisms greatest theologians, a 'doctor' of the church, Thomas Aquinas, dubbed a saint, wrote the following which suggests strongly that persecution against heretics, rather than the rare occasion, was in fact church policy, and remained so for a very long time.

“With regard to heretics two elements are to be considered, one element on their side, and the other on the part of the church. On their side is the sin whereby they have deserved, not only to be separated from the church by excommunication, but also to be banished from the world by death. For it is a much heavier offense to corrupt the faith, whereby the life of the soul is sustained, than to tamper with the coinage, which is an aid to temporal life. Hence if coiners or other malefactors are at once handed over by the secular princes to a just death, much more may heretics, immediately they are convicted of heresy, be not only excommunicated, but also justly done to die. But on the part of the church is mercy in view of the conversion of them that err; and therefore she does not condemn at once, but ‘after the first and second admonition,’ as the apostle teaches. After that, however, if the man is still found pertinacious, the church, having no hope of his conversion, provides for the safety of others, cutting him off from the church by the sentence of excommunication; and further she leaves him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated from the world by death.”
i guess simply observing the humongous load of guilt most Catholics seem to live with pretty much verifies the pov? i have Catholic friends in Flint that tell stories about the walking around on eggshells all of the time, devout mom still calling them to add a load every week or so, etc.

I got along with her quite well at first, until it became apparent that i could not be converted or guilted i guess. Or i mean i still get along with her fine, but her attitude toward me has changed, and there really was no scene or certain exchange or anything, we never had that much interaction

so, she is the only one in the fam that has been to any masses in years, if the RCC has changed their guilt policy it sure hasn't trickled down to her though
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Has the Catholic church changed regarding religious freedom?
Can the leopard change his spots or the Ethiopian his skin? The predatory Catholic Church will never change.

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jer 13:23)
 
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can the leopard change his spots or the Ethiopian his skin? The predatory Catholic Church will never change.

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jer 13:23)
Reeve revelations. It will shed the Christian disguise and revert to its roman pagan roots.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009
B

brakelite

Guest
Reeve revelations. It will shed the Christian disguise and revert to its roman pagan roots.
You will find I believe things will not be quite that simple. She is the first beast. The second beast is the one that exalts her to power and enforcing her mark... It is that second beast who forms am image to the first. This is not a statue. The first beast, the papacy, is a union of church and state. The second beast will also become a union of church and state. Religious freedom will then fly out the window.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You will find I believe things will not be quite that simple. She is the first beast. The second beast is the one that exams her to power and enforcing her mark... It is that second beast who forms am image to the first. This is not a statue. The first beast, the papacy, is a union of church and state. The second beast will also become a union of church and state. Religious freedom will then fly out the window.
The Harlot is the RCC reverted back to pagan roman emperor worship, which it never truly left behind.

The beast on the shore is the AC demon out of the sea of people in the EU.

The beast out of the Pit is a demon of the false prophet.

The dragon is a Satan who will enter the image of the AC and the temple and giving the appearance of life.

Revelation 16:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can the leopard change his spots or the Ethiopian his skin? The predatory Catholic Church will never change.

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jer 13:23)
YOUR problem is that ALL Protestantism sects HAVE changed their teachings over the years.
This is a telltale sign of a FALSE church.

On the other hand - the Catholic Church has NEVER changed a doctrine in its 2000 year history.
God doesn't change - and neither should the doctrines of His Church change . . .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marymog

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,230
113
North America
YOUR problem is that ALL Protestantism sects HAVE changed their teachings over the years.
This is a telltale sign of a FALSE church.

On the other hand - the Catholic Church has NEVER changed a doctrine in its 2000 year history.
God doesn't change - and neither should the doctrines of His Church change . . .
Assumption of Mary, Transubstantiation: examples of what was added to what Scripture says, centuries later. (There are a lot more.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Assumption of Mary, Transubstantiation: examples of what was added to what Scripture says, centuries later. (There are a lot more.)
Doctrines developed - but NONE has changed.

Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are Protestant doctrines that developed - yet are NOT supported in Scripture.
They were proclaimed 1500 years AFTER Christ ascended to the Father.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marymog

epostle

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2018
859
289
63
72
essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Assumption of Mary, Transubstantiation: examples of what was added to what Scripture says, centuries later. (There are a lot more.)
The notion that all beliefs and practices must be explicitly found in scripture to be valid IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE!!!
It is a man made tradition!!!

The Catholic Church defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine remain unchanged. Only the subjective grasp of men increases. This increase is the result of the prayerful reflection of the Church, theological study and research (often occasioned by heretical challenges), practical experience, and the collective wisdom of the Church’s bishops and popes, especially when joined in Ecumenical Councils.

Like many Christian doctrines, the idea of doctrinal development is based on much implicit or indirect scriptural evidence. The best indications are perhaps Mt. 5:17, 13:31-2, Jn. 14:26, 16:13, 1 Cor. 2:9-16, Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10, 4:12-15. Furthermore, doctrine clearly develops within Scripture (“progressive revelation”). Examples: doctrines of the afterlife, the Trinity, the Messiah (eventually revealed as God the Son), the Holy Spirit (Divine Person in the New Testament), the equality of Jews and Gentiles, bodily resurrection, sacrifice of lambs evolving into the sacrifice of Christ, etc.
Not a single doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?
 

epostle

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2018
859
289
63
72
essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
By and large, Protestantism merely asserts “sola Scriptura” without much consideration of the seriously-flawed implications of the same, and judges all doctrines accordingly. Therefore, those which are deemed to be either outright unbiblical or insufficiently grounded in Scripture to be authoritative, are jettisoned: the Marian doctrines, Purgatory, Penance, the papacy, etc. Apart from the question of Tradition as a legitimate carrier (alongside and in harmony with Scripture) of Christian belief, much more biblical support can be found in Scripture for these “Catholic” doctrines than Protestants suppose.

One simply needs to become familiar with Catholic biblical apologetic arguments. The idea of doctrinal development is a key, in any case, for understanding why the Catholic Church often appears on the surface as fundamentally different than the early Church. Thoughtful Protestants owe it to themselves and intellectual honesty to ponder this indispensable notion before lashing out at the allegedly “unbiblical excesses” of Catholicism.

Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,230
113
North America
The notion that all beliefs and practices must be explicitly found in scripture to be valid IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE!!!
It is a man made tradition!!!

The Catholic Church defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine remain unchanged. Only the subjective grasp of men increases. This increase is the result of the prayerful reflection of the Church, theological study and research (often occasioned by heretical challenges), practical experience, and the collective wisdom of the Church’s bishops and popes, especially when joined in Ecumenical Councils.

Like many Christian doctrines, the idea of doctrinal development is based on much implicit or indirect scriptural evidence. The best indications are perhaps Mt. 5:17, 13:31-2, Jn. 14:26, 16:13, 1 Cor. 2:9-16, Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10, 4:12-15. Furthermore, doctrine clearly develops within Scripture (“progressive revelation”). Examples: doctrines of the afterlife, the Trinity, the Messiah (eventually revealed as God the Son), the Holy Spirit (Divine Person in the New Testament), the equality of Jews and Gentiles, bodily resurrection, sacrifice of lambs evolving into the sacrifice of Christ, etc.
Not a single doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?
The Lord Jesus Himself regarded the Scriptures as normative:

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." (MAtthew 22.29)
 

epostle

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2018
859
289
63
72
essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The Lord Jesus Himself regarded the Scriptures as normative:

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." (MAtthew 22.29)
Jesus makes a distinction, you make a unity.
Whenever Jesus quotes scripture, He teaches it, He doesn't let scripture speak for itself. Your verse doesn't support a non-existing premise.
 
Last edited:
B

brakelite

Guest
The idea of doctrinal development is a key, in any case, for understanding why the Catholic Church often appears on the surface as fundamentally different than the early Church.
I find this very curious. That the Catholic Church is fundamentally different from the early church is at best, an understatement. However, in the context of what you call "doctrinal development", what was the reasoning behind the development of medieval persecution as an example of growing into truth?
And if the growth into the dark ages inquisitorial mindset was a growing into truth, what do you call the recent pronouncements from the Vatican claiming the modern church no longer practices such things, and thus has done an about face and travelled in the opposite direction. This seems to be flawed in light of what you are trying to convince us of with regards the trinity and every other Catholic doctrine.
Not a single doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.
So what particular doctrine needed further development that Thomas Aquinas thought it necessary to put to death those that disagreed with church doctrinal teachings? What really has changed?
Thoughtful Protestants owe it to themselves and intellectual honesty to ponder this indispensable notion before lashing out at the allegedly “unbiblical excesses” of Catholicism.
It is because I am being a thoughtful Protestant that I am questioning the unbiblical Catholic excesses of persecution. And wondering aloud if the Catholic church, if given the power, would repeat this when one considers that in the past, it was church policy to do so.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I find this very curious. That the Catholic Church is fundamentally different from the early church is at best, an understatement. However, in the context of what you call "doctrinal development", what was the reasoning behind the development of medieval persecution as an example of growing into truth?
And if the growth into the dark ages inquisitorial mindset was a growing into truth, what do you call the recent pronouncements from the Vatican claiming the modern church no longer practices such things, and thus has done an about face and travelled in the opposite direction. This seems to be flawed in light of what you are trying to convince us of with regards the trinity and every other Catholic doctrine.

So what particular doctrine needed further development that Thomas Aquinas thought it necessary to put to death those that disagreed with church doctrinal teachings? What really has changed?

It is because I am being a thoughtful Protestant that I am questioning the unbiblical Catholic excesses of persecution. And wondering aloud if the Catholic church, if given the power, would repeat this when one considers that in the past, it was church policy to do so.
And once again, you take things OUT of context to make your pathetic arguments.

@epostle never said that the Catholic Church was “fundamentally different” from the Early Church. He said that the idea of the development of doctrine is key in understanding why the Church often APPEARS to be fundamentally different than the Early Church.
BIG DIFFERENCE.

In other words, Einstein – unless you understand how doctrine can and DOES develop – you would ASSUME that the Catholic Church appears different than the Early Church – on the surface. If you reject the development of doctrine – then you’ll have to toss out a LOT of your Protestant doctrines that sprung up after the 16th century . . .

As for Aquinas - he was neither the Pope nor was he even a Bishop, as I already explained to you.
He was a Dominican Friar with is own opinions and he didn't make Church policy.

YOURS is the malicious brand of manure that people have to wade through to get to the truth.
 
Last edited:
B

brakelite

Guest
As for Aquinas - he was neither the Pope nor was he even a Bishop, as I already explained to you.
He was a Dominican Friar with is own opinions and he didn't make Church policy.
Yet despite all that, the church followed his counsel to the letter... For centuries... And millions died... Millions more suffered, as a direct result of the policy of the church which had been practiced since the time of Clovis... Use the sword of the state to enforce church practice.
Hence my question.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yet despite all that, the church followed his counsel to the letter... For centuries... And millions died... Millions more suffered, as a direct result of the policy of the church which had been practiced since the time of Clovis... Use the sword of the state to enforce church practice.
Hence my question.
Really - "Millions"??
How about a ballpark figure as to how many "millions" . . .