CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Only one comment here. Nothing will occur per the OT festival and so forth calendars. All of those are complete in Christ.
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At what specific point in time did they all become complete in Christ? At the cross? At his ascension?Only one comment here. Nothing will occur per the OT festival and so forth calendars. All of those are complete in Christ.
At what specific point in time did they all become complete in Christ? At the cross? At his ascension?
OK. So when was Shavuot/Pentecost fulfilled before or at Messiah's death?I believe when Christ died. That was when the veil was rent.
Colossians 2:16-18 New International Version (NIV)
Freedom From Human Rules
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind.
What difference does it make today?OK. So when was Shavuot/Pentecost fulfilled before or at Messiah's death?
I know your belief is that YHWH's laws were rendered null and void at the cross. I am asking you to show me that in Scripture. If you can't, then that means they were NOT rendered null and void. You quoted Colossians 2, but I have shown you that the NIV did NOT render the passage faithfully to the Greek. You do not understand what was happening in that congregation in Paul's day. It is the exact opposite of what you believe. The Colossians were keeping Sabbaths, Feast days and new moons, but were being judged by unbelievers to be doing it wrong. It would be equivalent to an unbeliever coming in your congregation today and telling you all that you are baptizing people the wrong way.What difference does it make today?
All of the feasts, festivals, holy days and Sabbaths are fulfilled.
Now they are history lessons. History is important.
Mosaic Law was rendered null and void at the cross. But it's still educational on many issues, as all of history is.
The point is you keep trying to say it is in force still.
When the new law comes via the new covenant to Israel and Judah, law will be in force again, but in a different form.
But it will not be relevant to the Church because we will no longer be flesh on the earth.
This is a shadow of the trumpet that will signal the resurrection of those in Messiah. They will be set at liberty from their prison, the grave, and return to the possession YHWH gives them and return unto their heavenly family. This will take place on the Day of Atonement in a Jubilee year.
The trumpet that signals the beginning of the Day of YHWH will be an alarm trumpet of war that signals YHWH's war against the wicked.
Num 10:9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresses you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before YHWH your Elohim, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.
I have no idea how Rabbinic Judaism views the feasts. I don't study their writings. I have no need to. The Holy Spirit teaches me what I need to know.I know that is Rabbinic Judaism’s interpretations of the Messianic fulfillment of those feasts, but considering how dreadfully wrong they are about the Messianic fulfillment of, for example, the Passover, I would advise against adopting their doctrines on the meaning and symbolism of the feasts.
It is the reality that casts the shadow. The shadow does not foreshadow the reality. Just as a tree casts a shadow on the ground and the shadow on the ground does not foreshadow a coming tree, the same is true of the feasts. For example, Yeshua was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He existed in YHWH's plan of salvation long before the feasts were given. It is the reality of Yeshua that prompted YHWH to give us the Passover lamb as a shadow of His coming Son Yeshua.And you do realize that while you fault my view claiming “Every reality casts ONLY one shadow” (and I think you have that backwards by the way, I think you mean every shadow only foreshadows one reality), you actually do the same thing … interpreting trumpets to symbolize resurrection, liberty from prison, a return to the land, a return to their families, as well as an alarm trumpet that signals YHWH’s war against the wicked.
As I said, you have multiple fulfillments for only one feast. Pick one of those as the reality of Yom Teruah.Read that entire chapter. I did bring out that use of trumpets, that it was used for “the calling of the assembly” and for the “journeying of the camps,” whether in war or in peace. Isn’t that what the Gospel is? God “calling” his people to assemble themselves at the door (Jesus is the door) of the tabernacle of the congregation? Didn’t John the Baptist, that “voice in the wilderness” call the people to come to Jesus? And didn’t I mention trumpets were used to direct the camp of the saints in the wilderness of this old world, in when and where to march, and certainly we are at war with the enemies of our God and of His Christ and woe to those of us who think that we might go into battle without "sounding the trumpet" of the Gospel of Salvation from God’s wrath.
I partially addressed this above. Also, I never said Yeshua did not fulfill the shadow of the atoning sacrifice. He did. He did NOT fulfill the anti-typical Jubilee trumpet heralding the ultimate year of Jubilee.And I notice you said “the shadow of the trumpet that will signal the resurrection of those in Messiah … will take place on the Day of Atonement.” Aside from the issue that the feast of Trumpets did not take place on the Day of Atonement, I think the view that the Day of Atonement has not yet been fulfilled is an even more difficult view than that of Trumpets being still unfilled. If the Day of Atonement, that one day on the Jewish calendar when the High Priest entered into the Holy of Holies and sprinkling the blood of the required sacrifice made atonement for sin, if Jesus has not fulfilled that shadow, then our sins have not yet been atoned. Which is a serious rejection of the very heart and soul of the Gospel, that through the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ there is now atonement for sin.
Are you a Preterist? I need to leave, but will address this later.And before trying to teach about the sounding of the alarm in God’s Holy Mountain described in Joel, you should read all three chapters, not just one verse. Joel was foretelling the judgment and destruction of the land of Israel in the days of the coming of Jesus in revenge against those who persecuted his church and shed the blood of the prophets and apostles and those God sent to preach the Gospel to them.
It is a description, sometimes using symbolic language, of the terrible destruction that occurred when the Jewish state was destroyed in the 7-year war in the generation of the coming of Jesus.
I know your belief is that YHWH's laws were rendered null and void at the cross. I am asking you to show me that in Scripture. If you can't, then that means they were NOT rendered null and void. You quoted Colossians 2, but I have shown you that the NIV did NOT render the passage faithfully to the Greek. You do not understand what was happening in that congregation in Paul's day. It is the exact opposite of what you believe. The Colossians were keeping Sabbaths, Feast days and new moons, but were being judged by unbelievers to be doing it wrong. It would be equivalent to an unbeliever coming in your congregation today and telling you all that you are baptizing people the wrong way.
You say the Law ended at the cross, but the Greek clearly shows that the things in Colossians 2:16 ARE shadows of things TO COME. You can view an online Greek interlinear of verses 16-17 here.
I said I would address this later. You assume it refers to the Roman army, but there is nothing in the text to suggest that. If I was to assume it was fulfilled, it would be by the Babylonians and Assyrians. However, it may yet have a future fulfillment. Joel 2:31 says, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of YHWH come." This most likely refers to the 6th Seal of Revelation 6:12; "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;" The Day of YHWH spoken of by Joel would then begin in Revelation 8. Then, in Joel 3:2-16, it seems to refer to the battle of Armageddon spoken of in Revelation 16. And, of course, the end of Joel 3 speaks of the Millennial Kingdom.And before trying to teach about the sounding of the alarm in God’s Holy Mountain described in Joel, you should read all three chapters, not just one verse. Joel was foretelling the judgment and destruction of the land of Israel in the days of the coming of Jesus in revenge against those who persecuted his church and shed the blood of the prophets and apostles and those God sent to preach the Gospel to them.
It is a description, sometimes using symbolic language, of the terrible destruction that occurred when the Jewish state was destroyed in the 7-year war in the generation of the coming of Jesus.
"Under the law" means under its condemnation. It does not mean we are not to be subject to it. Only the carnal mind refuses to subject itself to the Law of YHWH (Romans 8:7), but the spiritual mind will be subject to the Law of YHWH.Romans 6:14 New International Version (NIV)
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Galatians 3
Galatians 3 New International Version (NIV)
Faith or Works of the Law
3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?a]">[a] 4 Have you experiencedb]">[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”c]">[c]
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”d]">[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”e]">[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”f]">[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”g]">[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”h]">[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The Law and the Promise
15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”i]">[i] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Children of God
23 Before the coming of this faith,j]">[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
You would've been a Galatian back then.
In verse 17, Paul calls the things in verse 16 "a shadow", not reality.Colossians 2:16 was not a shadow, it was a existent reality.
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree since you cannot define exactly how Yeshua fulfilled Yom Teruah. We know exactly how he fulfilled the shadow of the Passover lamb, sin sacrifices, etc. How did he fulfill the trumpets/shouting of Yom Teruah?
It means we are not subject to the law."Under the law" means under its condemnation. It does not mean we are not to be subject to it. Only the carnal mind refuses to subject itself to the Law of YHWH (Romans 8:7), but the spiritual mind will be subject to the Law of YHWH.
You have totally misunderstood this passage. It is about being justified by the law vs. being justified by faith. All believers are justified by faith, not law. However, being justified by faith does not mean the Law is abolished. Faith establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).
In verse 17, Paul calls the things in verse 16 "a shadow", not reality.
It means we are not subject to the law.
It is Paul that called the things in verse 16 "shadows of things TO COME." In other words, they point to something yet to occur in the future.You keep talking about calendars and festivals, etc. Those are meaningless today except in a historical context. But you want to give them prophetic and other significance that they do not have.
That includes shadows. Biblically shadows and types refer to things in heaven. There are none in the new testament.
For the future we have prophecy. So if you wish to call prophecy shadows of things to come at no problem. But do not try to put the things in verse 16 back into fact for which he points to the body of Christ, which includes Israel and Church.
Romans 8:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
What does this have to do with the YHWH's holy days? Are you thinking I believe you are not a child of God because you don't keep the holy days? If so, you are wrong.16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Romans 3:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
Again, what does this have to do with the holy days? Or are you applying this to me as a personal attack?16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
I prefer topical studies. So when a particular holy day is approaching, I consider the themes and then do a topical study on one or more of those themes. For example, one of the themes of Sukkot is rejoicing. I would then check all the verses concerning rejoicing and see how they relate to that particular holy day/season. The main theme of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is leaven. So I would see what Scripture says about leaven and apply it to the feast and to my own life.I would find it interesting if you were to describe what your mediations are during the various feasts and holy days. If you have set readings, what verses stand out from those readings the most, and how do you incorporate them into your lives?
I prefer topical studies. So when a particular holy day is approaching, I consider the themes and then do a topical study on one or more of those themes. For example, one of the themes of Sukkot is rejoicing. I would then check all the verses concerning rejoicing and see how they relate to that particular holy day/season. The main theme of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is leaven. So I would see what Scripture says about leaven and apply it to the feast and to my own life.
I do not have set readings. I read what the Spirit leads me to read. If I do not feel led to read something in particular, then I will read all the verses concerning the particular holy day coming up.
Does that help?
I agree with your approach. The Feast Days lay out the entire plan of salvation for believers beginning with redemption at Passover to life beyond the Millennium pictured by the "8th day" of Sukkot. As we apply the spiritual aspects of the Feasts to our lives, we should not avoid the literal aspects such as literally removing leaven and not eating leaven during the FOUB, afflicting our souls for Atonement, dwelling in temporary shelters for Sukkot, not working on any holy days, etc.Yes. I believe I mentioned this to you before at CF one time, but I am a believer in the holy days corresponding with the exodus from Egypt, with Passover being followed by Unleavened Bread, and therefore representing the first steps in the salvation process for NT believers (Passover representing admittance into the body of Christ - i.e. His community - through His blood, and Unleavened Bread representing beginning by growing through the unleavened bread of His true word). This was the beginning of the teaching, yet there was much more involved as it went along. But I remember you saying it was a spiritualized application of the Feasts, which I freely admitted.
Just on those parts I have mentioned there, do you personally have problems with that approach? Or does that sound like an acceptable application of the spiritual interpretation of those Holy days to you?
I just gave you Romans 8:7 yet you totally ignored and teach against it.
Because you are misusing it.
It is Paul that called the things in verse 16 "shadows of things TO COME." In other words, they point to something yet to occur in the future.
I would consider that to mean they are prophetic in nature.
So when is speaks of the church, that is prophetic?
Did the literal Passover lambs and atonement goats point to a future ultimate Passover Lamb and atoning sacrifice in Yeshua? Is that not prophetic? If one cannot perceive the reality of a shadow, then they do not hold a prophetic aspect for that person, but for those that can perceive the reality before it comes, they are prophetic in nature. You are the former and I am the latter.
Your problem is the shadows were all OT and fulfilled.
What does this have to do with the YHWH's holy days? Are you thinking I believe you are not a child of God because you don't keep the holy days? If so, you are wrong.
Because there are no holy days in the new testament as stated in the verse.
Your acting like the Galatians trying to return to Law.
Again, what does this have to do with the holy days? Or are you applying this to me as a personal attack?
Your acting like the Galatians trying to return to Law. Listen to Paul on that issue.
I agree with your approach. The Feast Days lay out the entire plan of salvation for believers beginning with redemption at Passover to life beyond the Millennium pictured by the "8th day" of Sukkot.
As we apply the spiritual aspects of the Feasts to our lives, we should not avoid the literal aspects such as literally removing leaven and not eating leaven during the FOUB, afflicting our souls for Atonement, dwelling in temporary shelters for Sukkot, not working on any holy days, etc.
Your acting like the Galatians trying to return to Law.
Your acting like the Galatians trying to return to Law. Listen to Paul on that issue