Why Baptize a Baby?

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BreadOfLife

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No dude you are WRONG!!
You should brush up on the knowledge ABOUT Angels.
All Angels were CREATED Holy, and IN SUBMISSION TO GOD!
They were NOT LIKE HUMANS, "who are born in SIN, born NOT IN SUBMISSION TO GOD".
An Angel can not BECOME Greater than God.
An Angel can ONLY "REMAIN" a HOLY Angel, or "FALL" AWAY from God.
An Angel can not FALL AWAY and "THEN" Submit to God.
Lucifer was a Created Holy Angel, given great Powers. He is AN EXAMPLE, of one given great powers, "THOUGHT" he could BE Greater than God.
For Lucifers "THOUGHT" in his Heart, he was CAST OUT OF his first estate (Heaven), and DOWN TO Gods "FOOTSTOOL", (Earth), FALLEN down...
Now called a DEVIL, a LIAR, the father of LIES, Corrupt....and retained great powers, TO influence and corrupt "MEN" on EARTH, WHO REJECT "choosing to SUBMIT TO GOD"!
Read, Study and Learn the Truth...your accusations are WRONG!
Isa 14
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Learn, Earth is only his First fall...
The Center of the Earth; HELL is his next and final estate, along with other angels who LEFT their first estate. (Heaven)
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
ude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
And in the end - ALL evil is a REFUSAL TO SUBMIT to God.
ALL of it.

In the end - Satan refused to submit to Almighty God and THAT was his downfall.
No idea what SSA is or what you are babbling about.
God Bless,
Taken
It means Same Sex Attraction, Einstein.
THAT'S what we were discussing - and YOU condemned ALL of them to Hell. God doesn't . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I'm happy to confirm that Catholics themselves will tell you that being baptized alone will not save a person. They say that the baptism must be "accepted" at some point in the adult life - or the age of reason.
WHO told this this lie?? Why would you say that??
Completely UNTRUE.
Before Constantine, only those in a Christian household were baptized, including the children. This made some sense since people were very devoted at that time...whole families went to the lions, think of it. The chances were that if one grew up in a Christian family, he would also become a Christian.

After Constantine, the church was truly corrupted, in my humble opinion.
Now EVERYONE in the state HAD to be baptized, and thus began what we could call mechanical Christianity? IOW, it began to be believed that if everyone just did what the church/state said, they would be saved.
Go to church
Go to confession
Be baptized
etc.

This was a corruption of Christianity. Baptism became meaningless.
This is one of the dumbest, most ignorant perversions of history I've ever read on this forum - that that is saying a LOT.
Where do you get the idea that Constantine forced baptism by the sword??

DOCUMENTED HISTORICAL EVIDENCE, please . . .
 

GodsGrace

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Thank you.

Matthew 28:19 says to go and baptize. It doesn’t say adults only. If we look at the rest of Scripture it is clear that entire families were baptized. Infants are part of families.

Scripture says that baptism washes away sin and saves. Infants have original sin and you want them to be saved I assume?

I agree with you. Things were much more simple at that time. At that time they also underestood the connection between baptism and circumcission which occurred on the 8th day. Scripture even equates the two. Can you see the connection that your Christian brothers/sisters from 2,000 years ago osbserved and practiced?

Your Augustine theory is incorrect. Augustine had no AUTHORITY to make Church doctrine.

Furthermore you should read what Irenaeus and Hippolytus wrote about infant baptism MANY years before Augustine which CLEARLY shows that infant baptism was being practiced in the 2nd century.

Historical Mary
I agree that children were baptized.....I said so.

We have a disagreement with original sin. I don't believe it was imputed, as I've stated. Wish I was at my computer...

Deuteronomy and Romans speak to the circumcision of the heart. It is not the same as circumcision as practiced by the Hebrews. In the New Covenant we must make our own decision as to our desire to belong to God and be part of His family. Baptism sans belief is meaningless.

Let me ask you:
A baby is baptized and never accepts his faith. Is he saved at death?

As to Augustine....
I'm rather shocked at what you state. He's one of the most respected intellectuals in Catholicism and his ideas changed what the church came to believe. I hope you know that HE created the idea of predestination.
And it was accepted by the church.

You don't need to hope I read Iraneaus. I like him.
 

BreadOfLife

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Thanks for sharing what applied to Men who believed...and their wives, children, and servants who had not been allowed IN the Temples, under the Old Covenant.

The Church Age was established BY Christ Jesus, under a NEW Covenant.

By your teaching, it sounds as if, your church still teaches, its members are still under the Old Covenant, that God provided for believing Hebrews and Jews.

Salvation, Purification, and receiving of the Holy Spirit IS a gift from God, given BY God, TO individuals, solely based on what is IN the persons Heart...

Attending Temples, Churches, Men speaking over other men, dipping in water, sprinkling another with water, the pomp and ceremonies is for the benefit of stiffnecked men to SEE something and has nothing to do with the Lord Gifting an individual with Salvation of the individuals SOUL and Quickening of the individuals SPIRIT.

Glory to God,
Taken
Thanks for YOUR opinions - but you KNOW what they say about opinions . . . .
 

CoreIssue

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I agree that children were baptized.....I said so.

We have a disagreement with original sin. I don't believe it was imputed, as I've stated. Wish I was at my computer...

Deuteronomy and Romans speak to the circumcision of the heart. It is not the same as circumcision as practiced by the Hebrews. In the New Covenant we must make our own decision as to our desire to belong to God and be part of His family. Baptism sans belief is meaningless.

Let me ask you:
A baby is baptized and never accepts his faith. Is he saved at death?

As to Augustine....
I'm rather shocked at what you state. He's one of the most respected intellectuals in Catholicism and his ideas changed what the church came to believe. I hope you know that HE created the idea of predestination.
And it was accepted by the church.

You don't need to hope I read Iraneaus. I like him.

Baptized based on what?
 

BreadOfLife

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I have not displayed fear of responding to your question. You were answered.
Dude...you are steeped in your Gentile church teachings and rituals;
that MIXES the Old Covenant (given the Hebrews and Jews) with the New Covenant (given the Jews and Gentiles).

Under the Old Covenant, ONLY fathers attended Temple....not women, not wives, not children, not house servants.

The Rabbi's conducted the Temple Service. The men sat with their mouth shut and their ears open. What the men heard and believed, transferred to HIS FAMILY, by the man himself TEACHING HIS FAMILY (wives, children, servants).

The Circumcision of a male babies foreskin, was performed BY A father WHO was AGREEING with God Covenant, to Raise up his sons in the Word of God, that that son would be then PREPARED to grow up, and RAISE UP his own family IN THE WORD OF GOD.

Gods end of the Covenant, was to BLESS and SAVE the man and his family, "IF" THEY REMAINED in faith to God.

And the generations, one family with the father Head of the Family continued ....
Sons growing up, steeped in Gods Word, circumcising his sons, teaching his family, and they receiving blessings for their faith, and Salvation, should they continue in faith until their physical death.

I have seen you teach the SAME, as your church has taught you IS still NECESSARY for you to RECEIVE SALVATION.

Under the New Covenant, fathers, mothers, husbands, wives, children and servants, are all welcome to HEAR first hand the Word of God.

Under the New Covenant, fathers and mothers are to STILL required to expose and teach their children to the Word of God and His Precepts.

Under the New Covenant, the Lord SAVES individuals WHO individually CHOOSE to receive HIS GIFT of SALVATION and HIS GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT.

They NO LONGER WAIT for the Gifts to be GIVEN THEM at the END of their natural lives.....THEY Receive the GIFTS after they have BEEN PREPARED to RECEIVE the Gifts.

The preparation of the INDIVIDUAL...is "BEGUN" by a Parent teaching the child "ABOUT" the Lord.

The preparation of the INDIVIDUAL child...
IS, continued BY THE INDIVIDUAL CHILD, who is Growing, aging, (hopefully) maturing
to CONTINUE LEARNING ABOUT THE LORD....

OR NOT...(in which case, the individual is fallen away from being ENLIGHTENED by the Word of God).

As the child is growing, aging, experiencing the world, believing, not believing, wondering, playing, working, exposed and participating in lying, cheating, injustice, etc..... he has opportunity...of his own volition to TURN to God, and again or for the first time; LEARN ABOUT GOD; Become ENLIGHTENED by the Spirit of Hearing Gods WORD.....and choose HIMSELF to Believe it OR NOT.....and choose HIMSELF to COMMIT his LIFE to the Lord....OR NOT.

A man WHO CHOOSES TO HEARTFULLY COMMIT His Life to the Lord ...
RECEIVES the Lords GIFT of FORGIVENESS, the Lord GIFT of SALVATION and the Lords GIFT of a QUICKENED SPIRIT and the Lords GIFT of His Spirit....

Those GIFTS are received unto THAT individual man, RIGHT THEN.
NOT at the END of his natural life.
NOT because someone else asked FOR HIM.
NOT because of Water or a Ceremony.
NOT because the man was sitting in a Church.
NOT because the man was a member of any particular man made Chruch.

The man received those GIFTS, because the man PROFESSED He Belief in the Lord, AND the man AGREED to receive the Lords Gifts.

And the Lord Himself has ASSURED the man, that the Lords OWN Spirit would KEEP the man FOREVER FAITHFUL unto:
Thee Lord God Almighty.

Foreskin Circumcision is a act of EARLY men performed in accordance with the OLD Covenant, men made with God, to raise up their own sons in the Word of God.

Gods Circumcision of the HEART, is a Circumcision God performs IN MEN, UNDER the New Covenant, when such men HAVE Chosen themselves, to give their Life to the Lord.

Water Baptism is a act performed in accordance with Gods Direction given John the Baptist to PREPARE men FOR the IDEA of Baptism, that was to BE REVEALED when Jesus was to become Manifested in the Flesh, for men to SEE, and He teaching of the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, that was prepared for men to receive.....but that men COULD NOT SEE.

You should have LEARNED a long time ago...
The purpose and difference between...

Circumcisions and Baptisms MEN PERFORM...
(A foreshadow)
And circumcision and Baptism the Lord God Himself performs.
(Soul saving, and Spirit quickening, once and forever).

Glory to God,
Taken
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man is born of WATER AND SPRIT - he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven" (John 3:5).

Water AND Spirit.
YOU falsely preach a baptism of Spirit alone - but Jesus DIDN'T.

Throughout the Old Testament AND the NEW - God used PHYSICAL/TANGIBLE means to convey the Spiritual:
He used WATER to cleanse the earth
He used LOCUSTS and PLAGUES to harden Pharoah's heart
He used WATER to make Wine
He used SPIT to cure the Mute
He used MUD to cure the Blind Man
He used BREAD and WINE to give us His Body and Blood
He used his own BODY as a sacrifices for our sins


WHY would it boggle your mind that God would use WATER for Baptism of the Holy Spirit - when HE said that it would be that way??
What an appalling lack of faith you have . . .
 

GodsGrace

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WHO told this this lie?? Why would you say that??
Completely UNTRUE.

This is one of the dumbest, most ignorant perversions of history I've ever read on this forum - that that is saying a LOT.
Where do you get the idea that Constantine forced baptism by the sword??

DOCUMENTED HISTORICAL EVIDENCE, please . . .
You don't know what happened to the Catholic Church after Constantine?
Look it up on Google,,,,you seem to mention it a lot.
Any other source pre-google will also work.
 

BreadOfLife

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Thanks CI
You've done @BreadOfLife s homework for him.
I certainly hope he appreciates it and now understands what believe means.
You really don't have a clue - DO you??

What @CoreIssue posted was a complete definition of the word Pisteuo - with every secondary definition included.
Not ALL of the definitions of this word apply to ALL uses - just as we find in English.

For example, the word "Harp" means a "stringed musical instrument".
HOWEVER, it can ALSO mean to "talk persistently" about something.

The word "Butt" can refer to somebody's backside - but it can ALSO refer to the end of a cigarette. It can ALSO refer hitting somebody with your head.

"Believe" isn't ALWAYS used in the SAME manner in the Bible - and James 2:19 is CONCRETE evidence of this . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You don't know what happened to the Catholic Church after Constantine?
Look it up on Google,,,,you seem to mention it a lot.
Any other source pre-google will also work.
No - that's not MY job.
The onus is on the person who MADE the claim.

WHO taught you guys how to engage in a debate??
The onus is ALWAYS on the person MAKING the claim - not the person they are making the claim TO . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Let me ask you:
A baby is baptized and never accepts his faith. Is he saved at death?
If he dies as a - YES.
If he grows up, sins and does NOT repent - then his chances don't look good.

YOUR question is predicated on the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security (OSAS).
The Bible doesn't teach this.
 

GodsGrace

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No - that's not MY job.
The onus is on the person who MADE the claim.

WHO taught you guys how to engage in a debate??
The onus is ALWAYS on the person MAKING the claim - not the person they are making the claim TO . . .
If we're talking about paper, do you expect me to prove it's made from trees?
No. That's a given.
 

BreadOfLife

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That works both ways doesn't it. You have been shown documents from the 16th century sourced from your church's own Vatican archives and are included in Canon Law... Which you have tried to pass off as a speech from yesterday from some random cookie.
Care to elaborate on that??
 

GodsGrace

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If he dies as a - YES.
If he grows up, sins and does NOT repent - then his chances don't look good.

YOUR question is predicated on the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security (OSAS).
The Bible doesn't teach this.
So the baby is not saved if, as an adult, he never accepts his baptism.
So what's the use of baptising a baby???
 

BreadOfLife

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If we're talking about paper, do you expect me to prove it's made from trees?
No. That's a given.
I'm asking you to prove HISTORY - not paper.
BIG difference.

Constantine's Edict of Milan did NOT "force" Christianity on ANYBODY. It simply legalized Christianity and stopped the persecution of it.
 

BreadOfLife

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So the baby is not saved if, as an adult, he never accepts his baptism.
So what's the use of baptising a baby???
So that if the Baby DOES die - you are assured that he dies a child of God.
You are then bound to raise him in the faith. Later on - the decision is ALL his.