Can Jesus and Paul be reconciled on the LAW?

[ScottA]

Like I asked, what does Paul achieve that Jesus did not already for us on the cross?

Ecclesiastes 3:8

Are you ready for the harvest?

Paul pressed on in the Spirit bringing the gospel to the gentiles, leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ, which was foretold by Joel the prophet, ordered by Jesus, and confirmed by both Jesus and Peter...by the mouth of two or three witnesses.

Does that mean you also hate Joel, Jesus, Peter and the Holy Spirit too? (Rhetorical) Because you are speaking against them all.

 

[mjrhealth]

Nothing, but His gospel is just that, Christs gospel of salvation, how can you say you are saved by grace when you deny the very gospel...

Luk_10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

like I said, you Despise Paul you despise Christ because it was Christ who sent Him, but maybe sometime ignorance is bliss.

Joh_13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

And should I add if you have Christ you would have the truth and you would know that the gospel Paul wrote is true, because it is Christs gospel of grace.

 

[Danube]

Paul pressed on in the Spirit bringing the gospel to the gentiles, leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ, which was foretold by Joel the prophet, ordered by Jesus, and confirmed by both Jesus and Peter...by the mouth of two or three witnesses.

Does that mean you also hate Joel, Jesus, Peter and the Holy Spirit too? (Rhetorical) Because you are speaking against them all.

No. Jesus and Paul never met in the flesh. The litmus test given by the testimony of John for identifying the spirit as being from God or satan.
Your whole argument pushes on past the overwhelming evidence that there IS a false apostle. If not Saul you say, then who do you attribute the OT and NT warnings to? This would still be a question needing an answer.

Paul, being a child of the Devil, a liar and a hypocrite (Jesus' & Paul both agree mutually) actually had a date with satan (an angel of light) while on the run for commiting murder and bearing false witness, both punishable by death according to pre-Paul grace), so if you insist on pushing on regardless you need to explain WHO it is.
Judas was replaced with Matthias, this still leaves 12 apostles during the early church.

Which one is a false apostle?

Nothing, but His gospel is just that, Christs gospel of salvation, how can you say you are saved by grace when you deny the very gospel...

Luk_10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

like I said, you Despise Paul you despise Christ because it was Christ who sent Him, but maybe sometime ignorance is bliss.

Joh_13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

"If you have the Son you have the Father also."

What part of Jesus' words are you struggling to grasp! The above is so simple it shows that even children can comprehend and doesnt therefore rely on grammatical gymnastics of Pauline sophistry or beyond anyones understanding.

 

[Ezra]

What does Paul acheive for my salvation that my Lord and Saviour Jesus, hadn't already achieved for me on the cross?

Please do tell us.

honestly your nit very good at comprehending ..had you read any of paul teaching you would see his was a messenger 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth. 9For I am the least of the apostles and am unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.…

you just dont get it do you ..your either A. yanking chains or B your blind ..like the old saying its like a mule looking at a new gate.where that come from... on one hand you profess salvation then accuse paul as a false teacher rejecting all his writings on Grace . paul wrote to Titus in chapter 2 on grace
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching ( motivating us ] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

i cant see any light in you at all.. you have used empty theories.

2 Corinthians 4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 peter 2
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

you have done nothing to present your case .your well is empty

 

[GodsGrace]

This seems to be the one area that I cannot seem to reconcile with people I meet in Christian circles either at Church or lately online. Salvation by grace is a bit alien to me when it is explained in the context of my own conscientious reminders of Jesus' words that I read and pray to in the NT. Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul. One Church I visited in the past just preached Corinthians with a sprinkle of Jesus and it made me think.
Does Jesus have more authority in his father's kingdom, than Paul? Of course he does, but without being sucked into the grace vs works debate ....the differences between Jesus and Paul are for me personally, growing exponentially since I came to Jesus for help, guidance and to know his teaching. What are peoples thoughts on what seem like (using a child like comprehension) glaringly obvious contradictions between the two on the subject of Law (Torah observance)?

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus sets out his fold for whoever wants to see or reach the kingdom, so why do so many people rely on Paul who preached grace!??
Also there are an increasingly growing number of websites that are staunchly against Paul but also give very compelling arguements and list all the contradictions which when seen together makes it virtually impossible to defend Paul. I consider myself a quick learner but even I am at a loss here.

Late here,,,,I'm marking this for tomorrow.

Let me just say that there is no discrepancy.
If there were, we could throw out the NT.
Paul agreed totally with Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[Danube]

Late here,,,,I'm marking this for tomorrow.

Let me just say that there is no discrepancy.
If there were, we could throw out the NT.
Paul agreed totally with Jesus and the Apostles.

Ok. Who is the false "apostle"
?

 

[Danube]

honestly your nit very good at comprehending ..had you read any of paul teaching you would see his was a messenger 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth. 9For I am the least of the apostles and am unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.…

you just dont get it do you ..your either A. yanking chains or B your blind ..like the old saying its like a mule looking at a new gate.where that come from... on one hand you profess salvation then accuse paul as a false teacher rejecting all his writings on Grace . paul wrote to Titus in chapter 2 on grace
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching ( motivating us ] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

i cant see any light in you at all.. you have used empty theories.

2 Corinthians 4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 peter 2
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

you have done nothing to present your case .your well is empty

If you have the Son you have the Father also.

 

[ScottA]

No. Jesus and Paul never met in the flesh.

So? Have you? Are you a devil then?

The litmus test given by the testimony of John for identifying the spirit as being from God or satan.
Your whole argument pushes on past the overwhelming evidence that there IS a false apostle. If not Saul you say, then who do you attribute the OT and NT warnings to? This would still be a question needing an answer.

What false apostle? Scripture?

Paul, being a child of the Devil, a liar and a hypocrite (Jesus' words...) actually had a date with satan (an angel of light), so if you insist on pushing on regardless you need to explain WHO.
Judas was replaced with Matthias, this still leaves 12 apostles during the early church.

Which one is a false apostle?

You are speaking against Peter's approval of Paul, and against Jesus who foretold another fold and the acts of the Holy Spirit which align with Paul's testimony. Your testimony on the other hand, does not align.

 

[Ezra]

If you have the Son you have the Father also.

the devil believes the same way i suggest you check your well

 

[mjrhealth]

No. Jesus and Paul never met in the flesh

Paul may have being in the flesh, yet Christ appeared to Him, so what you are saying is that not all things are possible with God because you walk after your flesh and not the Spirit,

like this

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

guess what they where all in the flesh, are than all liars just because you hate Paul...

 

[Ezra]

waste of time

 

[mjrhealth]

waste of time

ye, it isnt for his sake, you cant make people hear what they dont want to hear, is a problem even for God...

 

[Danube]

... on one hand you profess salvation then accuse paul as a false teacher rejecting all his writings on Grace .

You fail to grasp the Gospel.
Re-read what you just said above which I quoted...now LISTEN to his voice..

Matthew 23:8

Paul' grace has left you blind and in serious error if you believe Paul was a teacher. Paul did not teach the LAW effectively, he preached quasi-spirit-grace that negates the LAW.
I cannot trust such a spirit that says Paul is a teacher.

So? Have you? Are you a devil then?
What false apostle? Scripture?
You are speaking against Peter's approval of Paul, and against Jesus who foretold another fold and the acts of the Holy Spirit which align with Paul's testimony. Your testimony on the other hand, does not align.

But Jesus rebukes Peter (Simon) for his worldy viewpoint that he recieved from who?
How many times do I need to repeat...
False teachers and false apostles have been plentiful throughout the history of the church. They still infiltrate unsuspecting churches and have even led whole denominations into heresy and apostasy (see 1 Timothy 4:1–4). Scripture gives us clear warning if we will pay attention.
First John 4:1 says, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
John gives you the measuring stick for testing the spirits ...now apply it to the spirit that approached Saul.

Do you reject John?

Of course not!
You are all about the Gospels...

Only you will notice this time it is NOT Paul writing about himself...

Get behind John if you cannot explain to us who YOU think he is referring to?

Paul speaks of false prophets and apostles too. He however is no so critical when writing about himself!

You have already implied it is not Paul.
Fine.
If not Saul/Paul....then who?

Scripture warns the diligent reader there is a wolf in the sheeps fold, Jesus has already rebuked the Pharisees which Paul boasts he was the "par excellence".

Revelation 2:2
Revelation 21:14

?

Deuteronomy 13:3

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

the devil believes the same way i suggest you check your well

No!
Satan (our accuser) believes that there is a God! All the demons do too! They tremble in fear of him.
Satan does NOT however believe, trust in or keep Gods commandments, nor does he confess Jesus is his Lord and Saviour.... Big difference!

Stop twisting scripture to fit yourviewpoint!

The devil DOES NOT HAVE THE SON!

 

[Ezra]

You fail to grasp the Gospel.
Re-read what you just said above which I quoted...now LISTEN to his voice..

Matthew 23:8

Paul' grace has left you blind and in serious error if you believe Paul was a teacher. Paul did not teach the LAW effectively, he preached quasi-spirit-grace that negates the LAW.
I cannot trust such a spirit that says Paul is a teacher.


But Jesus rebukes Peter (Simon) for his worldy viewpoint that he recieved from who?
How many times do I need to repeat...
False teachers and false apostles have been plentiful throughout the history of the church. They still infiltrate unsuspecting churches and have even led whole denominations into heresy and apostasy (see 1 Timothy 4:1–4). Scripture gives us clear warning if we will pay attention.
First John 4:1 says, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
John gives you the measuring stick for testing the spirits ...now apply it to the spirit that approached Saul.

Do you reject John?

Of course not!
You are all about the Gospels...

Only you will notice this time it is NOT Paul writing about himself...

Get behind John if you cannot explain to us who YOU think he is referring to?

Paul speaks of false prophets and apostles too. He however is no so critical when writing about himself!

You have already implied it is not Paul.
Fine.
If not Saul/Paul....then who?

Scripture warns the diligent reader there is a wolf in the sheeps fold, Jesus has already rebuked the Pharisees which Paul boasts he was the "par excellence".

Revelation 2:2
Revelation 21:14

?

Deuteronomy 13:3

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.



No!
Satan (our accuser) believes that there is a God! All the demons do too!
Satan does NOT however believe, trust in or keep Gods commandments, nor does he confess Jesus is his Lord and Saviour.... Big difference!

Stop twisting scripture to fit yourviewpoint!

The devil DOES NOT HAVE THE SON!

your right but he sure has you blinded

 

[ScottA]

You fail to grasp the Gospel.
Re-read what you just said above which I quoted...now LISTEN to his voice..

Matthew 23:8

Paul' grace has left you blind and in serious error if you believe Paul was a teacher. Paul did not teach the LAW effectively, he preached quasi-spirit-grace that negates the LAW.
I cannot trust such a spirit that says Paul is a teacher.


But Jesus rebukes Peter (Simon) for his worldy viewpoint that he recieved from who?
How many times do I need to repeat...
False teachers and false apostles have been plentiful throughout the history of the church. They still infiltrate unsuspecting churches and have even led whole denominations into heresy and apostasy (see 1 Timothy 4:1–4). Scripture gives us clear warning if we will pay attention.
First John 4:1 says, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
John gives you the measuring stick for testing the spirits ...now apply it to the spirit that approached Saul.

Do you reject John?

Of course not!
You are all about the Gospels...

Only you will notice this time it is NOT Paul writing about himself...

Get behind John if you cannot explain to us who YOU think he is referring to?

Paul speaks of false prophets and apostles too. He however is no so critical when writing about himself!

You have already implied it is not Paul.
Fine.
If not Saul/Paul....then who?

Scripture warns the diligent reader there is a wolf in the sheeps fold, Jesus has already rebuked the Pharisees which Paul boasts he was the "par excellence".

Revelation 2:2
Revelation 21:14

?

Deuteronomy 13:3

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.



No!
Satan (our accuser) believes that there is a God! All the demons do too! They tremble in fear of him.
Satan does NOT however believe, trust in or keep Gods commandments, nor does he confess Jesus is his Lord and Saviour.... Big difference!

Stop twisting scripture to fit yourviewpoint!

The devil DOES NOT HAVE THE SON!

You are all over the map (confusion). First you show hatred against Paul and do not consider him an authority, then you quote him as a reason for something you cannot substantiate without his words. Take one thing at a time and let's see if we can sort through things.

 

[quietthinker]

you know, all the yada yada is only indicative of a ship without a rudder! I doubt that this statement would even be considered seriously but if it there is an opportunity to get off the wheel.

 

[Ezra]

all his disclaimer of paul being a christian and a apostle . his conversion is recorded in ACTS who is the author of acts OTHER THAN THE HOLY SPIRIT .. Luke so to call paul fake he calls Luke fake

 

[Jun2u]

To the writer of this OP,

What I say below I say with love.

The reason you and many others in Christendom are having difficulties with understanding the Gospel is that you do NOT KNOW how to read nor comprehend the Bible, and so, fail to realize how to connect the dots so to speak. Many people read and critique the Bible like it’s an ordinary book instead of acknowledging that God is the Author of the Old and the New Testaments (2Peter 1:21). Thereby, making the Bible inerrant in its’ entirety and trustworthy.

Scripture teaches that God spoke in parables and without a parable, He did not speak (Mark 4:34). A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly/spiritual meaning. This makes the whole Bible a parable!! In fact, the word “proverb” means “parable.”

When Paul said he was an Apostle by the authority of Jesus that was not a lie. For example, when God appeared to Moses at Mount Sinai Moses’ face did shine by just looking at the backside of God. Likewise, the same is true when Jesus (in His glory) appeared to Paul on the way to Damascus but this time Paul was blinded. No one can look at God in His glory and not be consumed.
Note the key word in both instances above is the word “appeared.” This is what we call comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual. Except for Jacob who wrestled face-to-face with God at the River Jabbok.

The above is one of many examples in Scripture by which we might be able to understand the deeper meaning of difficult passages.

2Timothy 3:16-17
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...” (paraphrased)

1Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

I hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Danube]

When Paul said he was an Apostle by the authority of Jesus that was not a lie.

Paul tells you he lied (Romans 3:7)

Revelation 21:8 ...includes all liars. Did Paul ever repent of his lie/s??

If you use 2 Timothy 3:16-17 we may ask...

Could Paul, telling us he doesn't mind the odd lie.... also be lying about getting authority from Jesus?

How do you explain
Revelation 2:2
or
Revelation 21:14 in relation to Paul?

Paul makes 13.

Who is the false Apostle?

By answering you will need to for reproof and possibly correction if it contradicts God, Jesus, James, John and the prophets who warned of false leaders, teachers of the law and false apostles (you can try to prove Paul by his own words/letters but this is circular logic).

 

[mjrhealth]

So...could Paul also be lying about getting authority from Jesus?

Well you could call Paul a liar, than than would make Christ a liar, simply because of your hate for Paul..

You say you are in Christ but your words all say otherwise...