Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[Dave L]

I never suggested that I was a modalist.

But consider what it is you believe and what it is that you know:

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matt 3:16-17

The Spirit of God is simply God, is it not? Is not the Father a Spirit? Why would we or should we divide God into two Spirits? Is not the Father, holy, and therefore why would He not be called the Holy Spirit? Why do you call God a person? Is not a person a man?

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Num 23:19

But you deny three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each called God, simultaneously present, of the same single spiritual essence.

 

[Dave L]

Explain...What Is the Holy Spirit?

Glory to God,
Taken

The Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead also called the Comforter. You could say in an nontechnical way, God is one spiritual essence comprised of three persons. The Father Spirit, the Son Spirit, And the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

I don't blame you ...I acknowledge you are incapable of expressing understanding.

Understanding of Scriptures comes from God...not from the Minds of men.

You want to claim Gods Spirit expressly told your spirit...the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit? (Like you claimed?)

Glory to God,
Taken

You are not addressing the issue. How do you explain the Mount of Transfiguration revelation of the Father being separate from the Son. Simultaneously present which disproves modalism?

“While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said: This is My beloved Son. I take delight in Him. Listen to Him! When the disciples heard it, they fell facedown and were terrified. Then Jesus came up, touched them, and said, “Get up; don’t be afraid.”” (Matthew 17:5–7) (HCSB)

 

[101G]

He can not answer your question.

He can only quote Scriptures of knowledge.

You are asking a question about "understanding"...

You can read dozens of His posts and see...He doesn't comprehend the difference.

True, he's on the fence just in case if it turn out bad he can claim "no mas"
But anyone on the fence is double minded. Either you're hot or cold

 

[Dave L]

True, he's on the fence just in case if it turn out bad he can claim "no mas"
But anyone on the fence is double minded. Either you're hot or cold

How do you explain: “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)?

 

[Dave L]

He can not answer your question.

He can only quote Scriptures of knowledge.

You are asking a question about "understanding"...

You can read dozens of His posts and see...He doesn't comprehend the difference.

How do you explain: “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)?

 

[justbyfaith]

The Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead also called the Comforter. You could say in an nontechnical way, God is one spiritual essence comprised of three persons. The Father Spirit, the Son Spirit, And the Holy Spirit.

There is one Spirit:

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

How do you explain: “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)?

This has already been explained to you concerning Jesus' baptism...the same principle applies.

The Father inhabiteth eternity and can descend into anywhere in time that He desires to be:.

Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

After having lived one eternal moment, He descended to become the Son of God:

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

He can send his voice out of eternity to the times and places of Jesus' baptism and the transfiguration and still "later" descend to become Jesus.

In Genesis 1 in the Bible Codes there are ten dimensions mentioned. We as human beings are only aware of four of them: length, width, breadth, and time. Now if you consider how much is taken away from the possibilities if you take away only one of these dimensions, and then another (it is reduced exponentially), you will realize that each time we increase a dimension the possibilities are increased exponentially, as with adding a point to a number on the rictor scale (as with earthquakes).

Therefore the possibilities with the Lord are beyond our comprehension.

And therefore to say, "How can God do it this way; I just don't see how it is possible for that to happen that way"...is just not a valid argument. God is capable of doing things beyond our comprehension:

Gen 18:14, Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Jer 32:17, Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

Jer 32:27, Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Luk 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Eph 3:20, Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

 

[Dave L]

There is one Spirit:

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;



This has already been explained to you concerning Jesus' baptism...the same principle applies.

The Father inhabiteth eternity and can descend into anywhere in time that He desires to be:.

Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

After having lived one eternal moment, He descended to become the Son of God:

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

He can send his voice out of eternity to the times and places of Jesus' baptism and the transfiguration and still "later" descend to become Jesus.

In Genesis 1 in the Bible Codes there are ten dimensions mentioned. We as human beings are only aware of four of them: length, width, breadth, and time. Now if you consider how much is taken away from the possibilities if you take away only one of these dimensions, and then another (it is reduced exponentially), you will realize that each time we increase a dimension the possibilities are increased exponentially, as with adding a point to a number on the rictor scale (as with earthquakes).

Therefore the possibilities with the Lord are beyond our comprehension.

And therefore to say, "How can God do it this way; I just don't see how it is possible for that to happen that way"...is just not a valid argument. God is capable of doing things beyond our comprehension:

Gen 18:14, Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Jer 32:17, Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

Jer 32:27, Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Luk 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Eph 3:20, Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

You still have the problem of three persons, all called God, simultaneously present at Jesus' baptism, at the Mount of Transfiguration, and in the words of Peter who witnessed it. You cannot say God is one person wearing three hats.

On the Mount of Transfiguration

“While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said: This is My beloved Son. I take delight in Him. Listen to Him! When the disciples heard it, they fell facedown and were terrified. Then Jesus came up, touched them, and said, “Get up; don’t be afraid.”” (Matthew 17:5–7) (HCSB)

“For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)

Jesus' Baptism

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)

 

[Taken]

The Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead

I would say Bluntly The Holy Spirit "OF" God "IS" His "POWER".

also called the Comforter.

Yes, I would further say GODS "POWER", is called by many NAMES and revealed in many WAYS.

For example:
Called...Holy
Called...Spirit
Called...Almighty
Called...Mighty
Called...Comforter
** CALLED....CHRIST***
Called...Above ALL other POWER
Called...a "limited" amount of His Power, given as gifts to "others".

Revealed..."BY" the "results" of HIS POWER;
OF Things Created
Of Things Made
IN Things that "receive" amounts of His Power.

You could say in an nontechnical way, God is one spiritual essence comprised of three persons. The Father Spirit, the Son Spirit, And the Holy Spirit.

I would say the POWER of Thee ONE "GOD"...
IS the Holy Father, IS the Holy Son, IS Spirit.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

I would say Bluntly The Holy Spirit "OF" God "IS" His "POWER".



Yes, I would further say GODS "POWER", is called by many NAMES and revealed in many WAYS.

For example:
Called...Holy
Called...Spirit
Called...Almighty
Called...Mighty
Called...Comforter
** CALLED....CHRIST***
Called...Above ALL other POWER
Called...a "limited" amount of His Power, given as gifts to "others".

Revealed..."BY" the "results" of HIS POWER;
OF Things Created
Of Things Made
IN Things that "receive" amounts of His Power.



I would say the POWER of Thee ONE "GOD"...
IS the Holy Father, IS the Holy Son, IS Spirit.


Glory to God,
Taken

These passages show why your Modialistic Monarchianism was condemned as heresy and cannot be supported by scripture. You have yet to answer any of these passages.

On the Mount of tranfiguration

“While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said: This is My beloved Son. I take delight in Him. Listen to Him! When the disciples heard it, they fell facedown and were terrified. Then Jesus came up, touched them, and said, “Get up; don’t be afraid.”” (Matthew 17:5–7) (HCSB)

“For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)

Jesus' Baptism

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)

 

[Taken]

How do you explain: “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,

Peter is expressing in a letter to men of reiteration of His own Belief IN Jesus' WORD...

when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Peter is revealing, the men he IS writing TO, had already been told of Christ Jesus, specifically mentioning Christ's Power and Jesus' return of coming again.

but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Peter is reiterating, "Peter specificly was an EYEWITNESS" to many things Peter IS Telling them ABOUT Jesus.

For he received from God the Father honour and glory,

Peter saying in his letter...
He was present and witness to Jesus receiving honor and glory from God in Heaven.

when there came such a voice to him

Peter is testifying, he First hand heard the voice of God from Heaven.
(Also verified in Matt 17:1,2,3)

from the excellent glory,

Peter is testifying, he First hand saw the light of Gods Glory upon Jesus.
(Also verified in Matt 17:1,2,3)

This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Peter is testifying, of the WORDS from God in Heaven, that Peter himself heard.

And this voice which came from heaven

Peter is reiterating the PLACE, (Heaven) from which the VOICE he heard, came from.

we heard,

Peter is revealing, besides he being a First hand witness, there were others who also heard...(ie and why Peter says "WE")

The "WE" first hand witness ARE:
Peter, James, John (brother of James), Moses, and Elias.
(Verified in Matt 17:1,2,3)

when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)?

The "WE" witnesses, were all in the same place, "the holy mount", when this occured.

And what does this have to do with ANY point I have asked you....or....you are trying to make?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

True, he's on the fence just in case if it turn out bad he can claim "no mas"
But anyone on the fence is double minded. Either you're hot or cold

The problem with many, IMO, particularly in Christianiaty, is people choosing a "particular" VIEW, and then mimicing the VIEW, "according to mens "TEACHING", then trying to mimic the others "TEACHING", without understanding, the teaching.

For example...The TRINITY.
Off hand it is IMPLIED...the word TRINITY, appears to be "EXCLUSIVE, TRADEMARKED" and ONLY APPLY, "according to HOW IT IS TAUGHT". <--> according to MEN.

The "TEACHING" 99% of the TIME, includes the "teaching" of SEPARATION, and the SEPARATIONS always references that which "IS" separated "IS" "persons".

Teaching..
Father IS not..Son IS not...Holy Spirit IS not..

SePArAtiON ^^

Teaching...
Father IS a person..
Son IS a person..
Holy Spirit IS a person..

Oh and BTW, they ARE One "invisible" God..

If I were a NON-Converted person...Hearing those things for the FIRST TIME...

That "teaching" would sound like...
Three separate "humans" were...
Somehow meshed together, Kind of created and Kind of not; then to be called ONE invisible Spirit God.

And when SOMONE takes on the BELIEF OF the TRINITY.....according to a mans "TEACHING"....and then TRIES to "TEACH" or even "SUPPORT" their "view"....it fails....
Thus the circle of debate.

Personally, I do not BELIEVE, ANYONE has An exclusive ownership or trademark on the WORD "TRINITY".

I believe God IS ONE GOD, and there ARE EXCLUSIVE "aspects" "OF" God that "DO" certain things....Primarily "THREE" specific "aspects"...

"THREE" ~

Being Gods own Thoughts/Ideas/Plan...
Called Gods WILL.

Being Gods own Communication/Expression...
Called Gods WORD.

Being Gods own Ability/Effect/to Exericise WILL and WORD.
Called Gods POWER.

So, when I speak of the TRINITY...OF God
I am expressly speaking OF

Tri - THREE (WILL, WORD, POWER)
OF
Unity - ONE GOD

I am not speaking of:
GODS, WILL, WORD, POWER;
(as persons), (as the created), (as human), (as separated), <--- WHICH IS A "MANS" teaching...NOT Gods.

So, I have a completely DIFFERENT from most people, on WHAT the WORD "TRINITY", means to me......because it DOES NOT INCLUDE...all the little "inclusions" of words, that men use.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

These passages show why your Modialistic Monarchianism

Well Dave, I'm not a big fan of NAME "TAGS"...

So since YOU HAVE "PROCALIMED" a NAME TAG, and by your own authority have put it on me....

Least you could do...is identify YOUR MEANING...of those Name Tags, YOU decided should be given me.

So....git to gittin....DEFINE...

your Modialistic Monarchianism

Ignoring the rest of your post.
First things first...."your accusation"...explain it.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[101G]

How do you explain: “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)?

First thanks for the response, second, at his coming?,
2 Thessalonians 2:9 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

that's all I will say on that....

PICJAG

 

[justbyfaith]

You still have the problem of three persons, all called God, simultaneously present at Jesus' baptism, at the Mount of Transfiguration, and in the words of Peter who witnessed it. You cannot say God is one person wearing three hats.

This has been adequately answered as far as I'm concerned...if you are blind to the reality of the answer then I cannot help you except to pray that God will heal you of your spiritual blindness and open your eyes.

How many Gods/Lords are present at Jesus' baptism? You have not yet answered this question with a specific number.

My answer would be, that the Bible teaches that there is one God, even one Lord, present at Jesus' baptism. So if you have a different answer, speak up; and also give biblical support for your answer.

My biblical support: there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); even one God (Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

1 Corinthians 8:6 also presents a problem for you. There is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. If Jesus is not God the Father, then He is a Lord separate from God the Father. And therefore He is not God: because there is one God and one Lord. In order for Jesus, the one Lord, to be God, He has to be the one God, who is defined as the Father in 1 Corinthians 8:6 (and Ephesians 4:6).

Jehovah's Witnesses use 1 Corinthians 8:6 in their contention that Jesus isn't God. The answer to them is that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21); and therefore the one Lord Jesus Christ is God the Father.

I would suggest looking up these scriptures and thinking about how these concepts apply.

I would also mention that the Greek word for and is kai, which can be translated as even.

 

[101G]

I believe God IS ONE GOD, and there ARE EXCLUSIVE "aspects" "OF" God that "DO" certain things....Primarily "THREE" specific "aspects"...

how about three dispensatation of one Spirit? "I AM" Spirit, without flesh & blood, title Father. "THAT", the Same Spirit, diversified/spirit as the ANOTHER with Flesh and Blood, title son, TWO. "I AM" the Same Spirit glorified with Flesh and bone, but NO BLOOD, Father.

PICJAG

 

[Taken]

how about three dispensatation of one Spirit? "I AM" Spirit, without flesh & blood, title Father. "THAT", the Same Spirit, diversified/spirit as the ANOTHER with Flesh and Blood, title son, TWO. "I AM" the Same Spirit glorified with Flesh and bone, but NO BLOOD, Father.

PICJAG

Well, you can explain God your way with your words. I explained it according to my Understanding.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[101G]

Well, you can explain God your way with your words. I explained it according to my Understanding.

God Bless,
Taken

thanks for the reply, second, not my "Way", but the way of God.

I can only speak what the Lord taught me, and not my "own" understanding

Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

PICJAG.

 

[amadeus]

But you deny three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each called God, simultaneously present, of the same single spiritual essence.

Deny? That word is too strong to describe my doubts concerning your beliefs. I live for God by faith rather than by knowledge and I admit to knowing less than God. How much like Him are we to become?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Do my words make me a modalist rather than simply a seeker and a follower of Truth? I am a follower of Jesus. Does that not make me one of his disciples?

 

[Dave L]

Deny? That word is too strong to describe my doubts concerning your beliefs. I live for God by faith rather than by knowledge and I admit to knowing less than God. How much like Him are we to become?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Do my words make me a modalist rather than simply a seeker and a follower of Truth? I am a follower of Jesus. Does that not make me one of his disciples?

You are a modalist if you think God is one person instead of three.