Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[Dave L]

don't you talk to your self? ...

but you have no idead as to what Diverity is all about. JUST LIKE IN gEN 1:26 WAS not God speaking to himself that was to come in flesh. (smile), dave I have to laugh, your wisdom is from below .....

now, what about that John 1:3 and ISAIAH 44:24 reconcicle?

PICJAG.

“Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, And he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; That stretcheth forth the heavens alone; That spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Isaiah 44:24) (KJV 1900)

“All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3) (KJV 1900)

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14) (KJV 1900)

 

[101G]

“Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, And he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; That stretcheth forth the heavens alone; That spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Isaiah 44:24) (KJV 1900)

“All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3) (KJV 1900)

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14) (KJV 1900)

is this the SAME person? yes or no

 

[Dave L]

is this the SAME person? yes or no

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” (John 1:1–5) (KJV 1900)

 

[101G]

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” (John 1:1–5) (KJV 1900)

you didn't answer the question, let me make it clear, is the person in John 1:3 the same person in Isaiah 44:24 yes or no?

 

[Dave L]

you didn't answer the question, let me make it clear, is the person in John 1:3 the same person in Isaiah 44:24 yes or no?

“All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3) (KJV 1900)
“Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, And he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; That stretcheth forth the heavens alone; That spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Isaiah 44:24) (KJV 1900)

“Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” (Isaiah 48:16)

Three persons/one God

 

[101G]

“All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3) (KJV 1900)
“Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, And he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; That stretcheth forth the heavens alone; That spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Isaiah 44:24) (KJV 1900)

“Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” (Isaiah 48:16)

Three persons/one God

ERROR,
The beginning here at John 1:1 is not Genesis 1:1, but there at John’s day, supportive scripture.
1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 John 1:2 "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1 John 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:4 "And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

The apostle John was not at Genesis 1:1 John hands didn't handle the WORD at the begining if you think it was at Genesis 1:1. so your answer want fly, try again,

once more, is the Person in John 1:1 and John 1:3 the same Person in Isaiah 44:24.

 

[Dave L]

ERROR,
The beginning here at John 1:1 is not Genesis 1:1, but there at John’s day, supportive scripture.
1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 John 1:2 "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1 John 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:4 "And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

The apostle John was not at Genesis 1:1 John hands didn't handle the WORD at the begining if you think it was at Genesis 1:1. so your answer want fly, try again,

once more, is the Person in John 1:1 and John 1:3 the same Person in Isaiah 44:24.

“Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” (Isaiah 48:16) (KJV 1900)

 

[101G]

“Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” (Isaiah 48:16) (KJV 1900)

First thanks for your reply, second,
I see you cannot answer the question which is a easy question to answer. You simply is saying, "I CANNOT answer", because it will destroy my doctrine of belief in the trinity.

THIS IS EXACITY WHAT YOU’RE SAYING.

See dave, the scripture are true, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”.

You’re right now ashame, because you cannot “Rightly Divide” the word of TRUTH. you refuse to acknowledge the truth, which is that your trinity doctrine is false as modalism, which is what the trinity doctrine is in reverse. Yes, you have three person doing what the One person “shared “ is doing.

so it's no need for you to Ratiocinate any futher in this subject matter.

Good day, the next trinitarian

 

[Dave L]

First thanks for your reply, second,
I see you cannot answer the question which is a easy question to answer. You simply is saying, "I CANNOT answer", because it will destroy my doctrine of belief in the trinity.

THIS IS EXACITY WHAT YOU’RE SAYING.

See dave, the scripture are true, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”.

You’re right now ashame, because you cannot “Rightly Divide” the word of TRUTH. you refuse to acknowledge the truth, which is that your trinity doctrine is false as modalism, which is what the trinity doctrine is in reverse. Yes, you have three person doing what the One person “shared “ is doing.

so it's no need for you to Ratiocinate any futher in this subject matter.

Good day, the next trinitarian

I answered your ill informed questions for all to see. And you help present my case by denying the truth of the scriptures I present. So how do you interpret “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” (Isaiah 48:16) (KJV 1900)?

 

[101G]

I answered your ill informed questions for all to see. And you help present my case by denying the truth of the scriptures I present. So how do you interpret “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” (Isaiah 48:16) (KJV 1900)?

well, see dave, I'm not as sharp as you...... so just make it plain for us who is not as acute as you, jusy put it in Laymans terms. Is this the same person in John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24?

a YES or a NO will do for us.

 

[Taken]

How can there be a Father without the Son? If as you say the Father is the Son, then there is no Father.

You are trying to UNDERSTAND "spiritual things" with a CARNAL UNDERSTANDING.

In the CARNAL UNDERSTANDING....
A human man, can BE both "A" son, AND "A" father.

You are "A" son. (Of your father).
You are "A" father (in your house).
When "YOU" are in (your fathers house),
"YOU" are the son.....but (still you ARE "A" father.

WHEN...Thee "GOD" is IN HIS HOUSE...
Which is called "HEAVEN", (His Estate, His Throne).......HIS IS CALLED THE "FATHER"

WHEN "GOD" Himself "comes forth out from the Father....and LEAVES the Fathers "house, Estate, Heaven"........HE is no longer "IN HIS FATHERS HOUSE, OR CALLED, THE FATHER.

He IS THEN called "THE Son OF the Father. The Son of God".

WHEN...Thee "GOD" is IN manskinds "ESTATE", (called the foot stool, the Earth),
He is called the "Son".

Scripture IS CLEAR...
The Father IS in His ESTATE, in Heaven.
The Son came forth out FROM the Father.
The Son was DECLARED BY the Father.....
....TO BE CALLED THE "Son".
The Father was DECLARED BY the Father....
.....TO BE CALLED The Father of the Son
..that the Father Declared to be HIS SON.
The Father Declared the SON would be...
...SENT to Earth
...TAKE upon himself a BODY of FLESH
(The FLESH BODY, is a BODY PREPARED of GOD...(not created)....PREPARED!)
....BE REVEALED to mankind
.......coming FORTH out of a Virgin Jewish
..........woman's WOMB, which is mankinds
...........LAW of nature. (Babes, come forth out of a woman's womb)
(The Jewish WOMAN WAS A JEW, a DESCENDANT of Abraham, Issac, & Jacob.
According to GODS LAW...
...a Descendant of Abraham, Issac & Jacob, have the SAME GOD, "AS Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.
According to a JEWISH MANS LAW...
...A JEW coming forth out from a JEWISH woman's womb, (and the woman IS a descendant of Abraham, Issac, & Jacob), SO ALSO IS A CHILD that comes forth OUT OF HER WOMB, a Descendant of Abraham, Issac & Jacob.....AND
The child IS called...(according to Jewish Law)
.......the son of Abraham, the son of Isaac, the son of Jacob, the "SEED" of Abraham, the "SEED", of Isaac, the "SEED' of Jacob).

Continuing ON the SON of God being revealed;
....BE REVEALED, in the LIKENESS of mankind
....BE called The Son of God
....BE called JESUS
....BE as HE IS, Holy and Pure, without fault
...SEARCH out "LOST JEWS".

And this is evidence of someone possessed

No. The SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE IS:
God DECLARES, WHAT IS and IS NOT.

Human men DO NOT COME FORTH OUT from GOD......YET God Himself ... CAN and DOES
"DECLARE" human men...CAN BECOME HIS "sons".

God Absolutely DOES have the POWER....
AND DID, SEND FORTH OUT FROM HIM...
His OWN WORD, in the flesh LIKENESS "as a man" , In a FLESH BODY, prepared of God...(NOT by the WILL or BLOOD of a HUMAN);
TO BE Manifested and Revealed for MANKIND TO hear and see.....AND God Expressly CHOSE a Jewish Virgin Woman's Womb, "OF" the direct LINE of GODS "FAITHFUL" Servants...
Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.
That HIS OWN Son would be IN tHE SAME, HOLY and FATHFUL descending line, as Gods OWN Faithful and Saints...Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.

God Prepared The Son....to FULFILL Prophecy and THE LAW.

The Son....ACCOMPLISHED...EVERY prophecy and Law He came TO ACCOMPLISH...and then
GAVE that Prepared Flesh Holy and Pure Body unto DEATH..........so YOU, could have Eternal LIFE.....BY and THROUGH HIM!

All of these things AND MORE are revealed IN SCRIPTURE....and the UNDERSTANDING of these things......COME FROM GOD...TO the individual WHO IS "IN" Christ Jesus.

God "PURPOSED" IN "HIMSELF"...to REVEAL HIMSELF....TO THE WORLD....
IN A FASHION and MANNER....GOD Himself CHOSE. YOU...can BELIEVE what He has revealed....OR NOT.

by the spirit of Antichrist. “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22) (KJV 1900)

Who is without TRUST....to BELIEVE What Scripture reveals?

MANY....!!

WHY? Because they REFUSE to "BELIEVE" what they can not UNDERSTAND.

And MANY MEN....Want to believe....
SO THEY MAKE UP "THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING"....from their OWN
"CARNAL MIND"....
Then PROFESS....THEY BELIEVE.

The FACT is...YOU profess BELIEF...
According to YOUR CARNAL UNDERSTANDING;...and "THAT" is revealed...
BY and THROUGH "your own words of what you say".

The voice from heaven saying "this is my beloved Son", during Jesus' baptism proves both cannot be the same.

No, it does not. Jesus being dipped in water, does not PROVE, Jesus is not the Father.

“When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, ‘Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you’” (v. 1).

- John 17:1–5

“And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.” (1 John 4:14) (KJV 1900)

YOU obviously HAVE NOT LEARNED...
THE VERY BASIC PURPOSE FOR JESUS BEING REVEALED TO THE WORLD...

Jesus came "TO SHOW" A WORLD of "LOST" men.....HOW TO BECOME SAVED AND RESTORED "FROM" their "CORRUPTION"...
BACK UNTO THE Lord God.

WHY DID MEN need to be "SHOWN" ?
History tells YOU.
...OT men "HEARD"...without SEEING, and
....MOST "could NOT BELIEVE"
....God called them "stiffnecked".
Biblical History tells YOU.
...Men ASKED TO "SEE" God.
Ha...quite a DILEMMA...since ANY MAN who would LOOK, and SEE God, would instantly be DISINTEGRATED.....
( Well MAN's IDEA...wouldn't result in SAVING a man....IT WOULD INSTANTLY KILL THE MAN!)
The WORLD tells YOU.
...."SEEING"...is Believing.
And many MEN "OF" the world will tell you...
"THEY" have thought, and pondered, and come to the Conclusion of the CARNAL MIND and PHILOSOPHIES...the meaning of Gods Word.

TOO BAD, Scipture says...
The Carnal MIND is Against God...and thus the Carnal Mind can not interpret or understand Gods Word.
Scripture says...
Do not trust philosophies of men.

BUT MANY men DO the complete opposite of Scripture.....and DECIDE with their MIND...what Gods WORD "MEANS"...with interpretations and philosophies.


Gods PLAN...was to SAVE mankind..."FROM CORRUPTION"....
....ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PLAN...
TO: reveal Himself...in a FASHION MEN "COULD LOOK AND SEE"..."SOMETHING"...
And KNOW IT WAS GOD....without ACTUALLY SEEING God.......AS HE IS.

A burning bush, A dove, A cloud, A man....

What did men SEE, and LOOK AT?
A burning bush, A dove, A cloud, A man....

And what DID MEN who LOOKED AT THOSE THINGS PROCLAIM...?
That THEY were IN the Presence of God, and had SEEN GOD.

If YOU believe....God IS the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.......and IF you are EVER in the Presence of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.......Do you believe you are in the presence of God......and YOU in His Presence?

And do you have to SEE HIM WITH YOUR "NATURAL EYES" and become "disintegrated" BEFORE you Understand it?

IF so....WHY do you teach the Separation of God...saying the Father, the Son, the HS...IS NOT...what you declare?

You MIMIC what others have taught you....
But yet you can not SHOW ONE SCRIPTURE that SAYS WHAT YOU declare.

Trust the Truth...God IS;
Thee Lord God Almighty...ONE GOD...
Son, Father, Holy Spirit...
Lord, God, Almighty...
He is NOT ever Separate from Himself.

God wants men to TrUST Him....even when they do not yet have HIS understanding.

And you simply show YOU...BELIEVE....according to YOUR understanding...which is separating God from himself.

God purposed in MANKIND, to Trust HIS WORD.

God purposed in HIMSELF, to REVEAL HIS WORD "in Himself", in a FASHION, HE chose.

Eph 1
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

What do you think the majority of JEWS are WAITING FOR?

They are WAITING FOR GOD, their Messiah Savior, to Come SIT on the everlasting THRONE OF DAVID, in the city of David....Jerusalem...and BE THEIR KING...and SAVE THEM FROM the WORLD of nations that SURROUND THEM WITH HATE FILLED DESIRES to KILL THEM ALL.

Why do you call.....the Jewish Messiah...your Savior...but then teach...

THEY; Father, Son Holy Spirit...
are "Not" eachother?

TRUTH IS.....you can NOT show ONE Scripture saying WHAT YOU CLAIM...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

well, see dave, I'm not as sharp as you...... so just make it plain for us who is not as acute as you, jusy put it in Laymans terms. Is this the same person in John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24?

a YES or a NO will do for us.

Same Spirit three persons of the same spiritual essence. “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I [1st person using basic rules of grammar] have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I [same person speaking in the 1st person]: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit [spoken of in the 3rd person using basic rules of grammar], hath sent me [again 1st person using basic rules of grammar] .” (Isaiah 48:16) (KJV 1900)?

 

[Dave L]

But, three persons all called God were present at Jesus' baptism

 

[Dave L]

“Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, And my right hand hath spanned the heavens: When I call unto them, they stand up together. All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; Which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: He will do his pleasure on Babylon, And his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I: And now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” (Isaiah 48:12–16) (KJV 1900)

The Trinity in Genesis 1
With this important background, we can even see evidence for the Trinity right at the beginning of the Bible, in Genesis 1.

The Father is in overall supervision. The whole of creation is made by His command. Yet, we read that God said, “Let there be light.” In John’s Gospel, Jesus is described as the Word of God—and also as the Light. We can see, then, that the creation was made through Jesus—and this is supported by Colossians 1:15–17. Finally, in Genesis 1:2, we read about the Spirit “hovering over the face of the waters.” That accounts for all three Persons of the Trinity at the very start of things.

Trinity in the OT.

 

[101G]

Same Spirit three persons of the same spiritual essence. “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I [1st person using basic rules of grammar] have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I [same person speaking in the 1st person]: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit [spoken of in the 3rd person using basic rules of grammar], hath sent me [again 1st person using basic rules of grammar] .” (Isaiah 48:16) (KJV 1900)?

well dave, still cannot answer? that's ok, you said, "And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit [spoken of in the 3rd person using basic rules of grammar], sent me [again 1st person using basic rules of grammar]
so the Son was sent by the Father, (the Lord God) and his Spirit is this correct?

 

[Dave L]

well dave, still cannot answer? that's ok, you said, "And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit [spoken of in the 3rd person using basic rules of grammar], sent me [again 1st person using basic rules of grammar]
so the Son was sent by the Father, (the Lord God) and his Spirit is this correct?

You assume since you know nothing about the subject, it must not exist, or you would comprehend it.

 

[101G]

You assume since you know nothing about the subject, it must not exist, or you would comprehend it.

ok clear up any assumption, is the Son sent by the Lord God and his spirit, yes or no?

 

[Dave L]

ok clear up any assumption, is the Son sent by the Lord God and his spirit, yes or no?

What does this say? “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” (Isaiah 48:16) (KJV 1900)

 

[101G]

What does this say? “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I: And now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” (Isaiah 48:16) (KJV 1900)

dave make it clear, is it the one whom you call the son was sent by the Lord God and his spirit yes or no?

it's simple if the Lord God and his spirit sent the Son or not. make it clear.....

 

[amadeus]

This is true, but it side step the issue of the bible's presentation of God. If we select a few passages only, we are more like Islam and Judaism in depicting God. If we take all of it, we are trinitarian as the church has been for millennia.

I take all of the scripture as God shows it me and thus far that has not left me trinitarian. But, most of that which you call church is perhaps heading to the same end that most of the children of Jacob headed in wilderness instead of toward the Promised Land.