Why The Two Legs Of Daniel 2 Represent Only Western Rome

[Phoneman777]

1. Daniel plainly tells us the "legs of iron" are representative of a singular kingdom (Daniel 2:40-41) - namely the pagan Roman Empire - not a plurality of two kingdoms.

2. The fourth kingdom is said to "be divided". It is illogical to acknowledge this kingdom is depicted as two "legs of iron" and yet claim that the two legs simultaneously represent two kingdoms - East and West Rome. The only division Daniel speaks of here is the division of the two legs (Roman Empire) into Ten Toes (the ten barbarian divisions that arose after Rome fell).

3. The focus of prophecy is Christ and His Christians, the vast majority of which were in Western Rome.

4. The movement of unfolding prophecy is from East to West, starting at Babylon. A shift in movement from Western Rome back East to Byzantine as "the right leg of the image" is an abrupt interruption in the pattern.

5. The parallel prophecies of Daniel and Revelation continue to treat the empire which follows Greece as a singular kingdom.

6. The two legs are there only to maintain the symmetry of the image - a one-legged image would appear as a disturbing, asinine, asymmetrical freak show.

After the Fourth Kingdom, Pagan Rome, fell in 476 A.D., no fifth empire came up - it was divided into ten barbarian kingdoms, among which the "Little Horn" Papacy arose and uprooted three that refused to acknowledge the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, and went on to reign for the predicted 1,260 years from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. and fulfill all the identifying marks in prophecy as Antichrist.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

So I have been taught that the 7 heads on the beast in Rev. 13 represented different Kingdoms.
And that the metallic man in Daniel represented different Kingdoms. These Kingdom had somewhat powers over the Jews.
So can we use Daniel to figure out at least 5 kingdoms of the Beast in Rev..
Then it would leave us 2 to figure out.
This might be history before Babylon or some might think 2 in the future ?

What is your thoughts on this ?

 

[Trekson]

Dan. 9:26 - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Most of Titus's army wasn't Roman, they were conscripted soldiers from surrounding nations already conquered by Rome, so it is more likely a future ten nation confederacy will consist of the middle east nations, ie. the eastern empire.

 

[Dave L]

Dan. 9:26 - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Most of Titus's army wasn't Roman, they were conscripted soldiers from surrounding nations already conquered by Rome, so it is more likely a future ten nation confederacy will consist of the middle east nations, ie. the eastern empire.

But....where's the gap that makes this unfulfilled as of yet?

 

[Trekson]

But....where's the gap that makes this unfulfilled as of yet?

Same place it was between 33ad and 40ad, still waiting...

 

[Dave L]

Same place it was between 33ad and 40ad, still waiting...

Scripture does not mention a gap. Therefore, all prophecy based on one is false.

 

[brakelite]

So I have been taught that the 7 heads on the beast in Rev. 13 represented different Kingdoms.
And that the metallic man in Daniel represented different Kingdoms. These Kingdom had somewhat powers over the Jews.
So can we use Daniel to figure out at least 5 kingdoms of the Beast in Rev..
Then it would leave us 2 to figure out.
This might be history before Babylon or some might think 2 in the future ?

What is your thoughts on this ?

Good question. In Daniel 7 there are four beasts...kingdom/empires. In Revelation there are 3 beasts...kingdom/empires. The four in Daniel are literal local kingdoms. The first 3 are explicitly named by Gabriel as Babylon, Media-Persia, and Greece. IN Daniel 2 there is no gap in the image, so we can assume that whatever kingdom follows Greece, "the fourth kingdom upon the earth" as Gabriel said, comes immediately after Greece. In Daniel 8 it is described as a horn that grows out of one of the four winds (Daniel 8:9) In the same verse it is described also as conquering in an even greater fashion and having power exceedingly great , greater even than the entire Greek empire which preceded it. In the same verse again, this single power, a power which followed Greece, was greater than Greece, conquered in 3 specific directions...south (Africa), East (as far as Britain) and the pleasant land...obviously Palestine. Only Rome fits these criteria.
There is more however. As Phoneman said above, only Rome divided into ten kingdoms. And in Daniel 7 we are told that 3 of those kingdoms were rooted up. This happened in history. This gives the honest reader perfect pointers as to the identity of not only pagan Rome, but the little horn which grew from the head of Pagan Rome. Some get a little confused at this point. They believe the little horn of Daniel 7:8 and the little horn of Daniel 8:9 to be the same horn. Not quite. Note the little horn of Daniel 7 grows from the head of pagan Rome, whereas the little horn of Daniel 8 grows from the winds , or directions that one of the previous 4 horns reigned. So first horn grows after Rome has gone...the other after Greece has gone. So the horn of Daniel 7 is papal Rome...the horn of Daniel 8 is pagan Rome...however, there is a subtle clue that God offers us with regards the little horn that grows after Greece has been conquered in Daniel 8....That particular horn has a change of character. At first it conquered in a horizontal fashion Daniel 8:9) but then in verse 10 we are told
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
These aforementioned verses refer to the papacy. So the little horn in Daniel 8 is both pagan and papal Rome...it is representative of the continuation of the Roman character in the papal character, right to the end of time and its impending destruction when Christ returns.

As far as the 3 beasts in Revelation... the OT kingdoms were literal and localised; Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome. In NT times however, we are presented with a paradigm switch. What John in Revelation reveals is that Babylon the Great, the final union of beast and woman, (church and state), is a global religious conglomerate. It is a spiritual entity. The three beasts, Revelation 13:1-2 , Revelation 13:11, and the third beast of Revelation 11:7 , are all spiritual kingdoms. Much more explanation an be given to give a full idea, but those three global spiritual kingdoms, each one having the great dragon as head of state, are the Papacy, apostate Potestantism, and atheism. The first beast "died" in 1798 at the hands of France (Napoleon)...and was revived in 1929 at the hands of Italy (Mussolini). The second beast rose up at the same time as the first one was dying...it can only be the US...predominantly a Protestant power. Having at first two horns like a Lamb (republicanism and Protestantism)...state without a king...religion without a pope...the first historical state crafted expression of true liberty as taught by Christ) ut later speaking as a dragon (the devil), thus implementing policies the opposite to its initial constitutionally established fredoms...The US to a tee.
The third beast also rose up at the same time, the dragon implementing a system in direct opposition to what was happening in America...from the French revolution arose state sponsored atheism...the third beast...today finding its fulfillment in Communist states in China, Nth Korea, Cuba, and elsewhere...all sworn ideological (spiritual) enemies to the US.

 

[Trekson]

Scripture does not mention a gap. Therefore, all prophecy based on one is false.

Scripture also doesn't mention a lengthy time period, 4000 yrs. for the prophecy of Gen. 3:15 to be fulfilled, it also doesn't mention a "gap" of 700 yrs. before Is. 53 would be fulfilled. Doesn't mean they weren't there.

 

[Dave L]

Scripture also doesn't mention a lengthy time period, 4000 yrs. for the prophecy of Gen. 3:15 to be fulfilled, it also doesn't mention a "gap" of 700 yrs. before Is. 53 would be fulfilled. Doesn't mean they weren't there.

But you create a false gap and build false prophecy on top of it.

 

[Trekson]

But you create a false gap and build false prophecy on top of it.

I don't believe so, the fact is if a prophecy isn't 100% fulfilled, it's not fulfilled, period. There just is no way anyone can honestly say that all the parameters of Dan. 9:24 have been fulfilled without falling into the trap of questionable symbolism.

 

[Dave L]

I don't believe so, the fact is if a prophecy isn't 100% fulfilled, it's not fulfilled, period. There just is no way anyone can honestly say that all the parameters of Dan. 9:24 have been fulfilled without falling into the trap of questionable symbolism.

False prophets say the same. They take already fulfilled prophecy and project it into the future. Dispensationalists do this as a matter of routine.

 

[Enoch111]

Papacy arose and uprooted three that refused to acknowledge the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, and went on to reign for the predicted 1,260 years from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. and fulfill all the identifying marks in prophecy as Antichrist.

One cannot arbitrarily convert 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) to 1,260 years. Those 1,260 days are the 42 months assigned to the Beast (the Antichrist) in the future. They are also designated as time (1 yr), times (2 yrs) and the dividing of time or half a time (6 months). Therefore the papacy does NOT fulfill this prophecy.

Yes the legs of iron of that image represented the Roman Empire, but the feet having an admixture of iron and clay represent ten kingdoms or nations which will arise out of the former Roman empire to initially support the Antichrist.

 

[CoreIssue]

But you create a false gap and build false prophecy on top of it.

Where does the Bible say there cannot be a gap between two events?

There was a gap between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. There is been many gaps in the OT testament between warning Israel and punishing Israel.

There was a huge gap between promising the coming of Christ and the first coming of Christ. As well he was promised to come as King and Messiah, but has only come as Messiah so far.

He promised Israel the promised land but they didn't get it for 40 years.

So where are you getting this nonsense there can be no gap?

 

[Dave L]

Where does the Bible say there cannot be a gap between two events?

There was a gap between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. There is been many gaps in the OT testament between warning Israel and punishing Israel.

There was a huge gap between promising the coming of Christ and the first coming of Christ. As well he was promised to come as King and Messiah, but has only come as Messiah so far.

He promised Israel the promised land but they didn't get it for 40 years.

So where are you getting this nonsense there can be no gap?

The idea is not what the bible doesn't say, but what it says. Faith comes from hearing the word.

 

[CoreIssue]

The idea is not what the bible doesn't say, but what it says. Faith comes from hearing the word.

It says there is a gap

 

[Dave L]

It says there is a gap

Where?

 

[CoreIssue]

Where?

By the order of prophetic events, those of the 70th week have yet to occur

 

[Dave L]

By the order of prophetic events, those of the 70th week have yet to occur

They were contiguous and Jesus fulfilled the 70th week confirming the covenant and causing the animal sacrifice to end with the sacrifice of himself on the cross. But the "gapites" turn Jesus into Antichrist. Which is blasphemy.

 

[CoreIssue]

They were contiguous and Jesus fulfilled the 70th week confirming the covenant and causing the animal sacrifice to end with the sacrifice of himself on the cross. But the "gapites" turn Jesus into Antichrist. Which is blasphemy.

False

 

[Dave L]

False

You are converting fulfilled prophecy into unfulfilled. And turning Jesus into Antichrist.