The Five Points of Calvinism

[Waiting on him]

Yes, Satan is a is a huge liar and humans are by nature vain and egotistical.

But that does not mean every human is devoid of a desire for God and to confess their sins and ask for salvation.

In your logic for God choosing some for salvation and the rest not has no basis in the Bible. Nowhere does it teach the concept that God destined some for salvation and some for damnation. Nowhere.

As for your special sauce the Bible addresses that pointedly. It says many will claim special sauce but he'll tell them you never had it.

Simple fact is if we went by your formula no one would ever be saved.

God wants all saved and everyone gets an invitation. Up to them to choose.

If they so choose then he cleans them up in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Actually the sauce in promoting is many are called but few are CHOOOOSSSEN!!!!

 

[Waiting on him]

How about dealing with the totality of Romans 8? It says God for nose who would love him and he then predestined as a mobile with the glorification.

It does not say God predestined who would love him. And it goes on to say nothing in all creation can remove them from God's hands.

Again, those who love him, not those he pre-Destines for salvation.

1 John 4:19 KJV
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.

Tecarta BibleBoy, you really don’t get this do you?

 

[Dave L]

Augustine actually made allowance for free will as I quoted from his own writings. Luther and Calvin distorted the truth by claiming that sinners cannot even respond to the Gospel.

But since Christ and the apostles plainly said that the Gospel must be preached and sinners must respond by either believing or not believing, the Bible does NOT support the false Reformation teaching about free will.

Augustine’s Writings on Grace and Free Will

Augustine's Writings on Grace and Free Will | Monergism


State in contrast the main distinguishing positions of the Augustinian and Pelagian systems.


“1st. As to ORIGINAL SIN.

“Augustinianism. By the sin of Adam, in whom all men together sinned, sin and all the other positive punishments of Adam’s sin came into the world. By it human nature has been both physically and morally corrupted. Every man brings into the world with him a nature already so corrupt, that it can do nothing but sin. The propagation of this quality of his nature is by concupiscence.

Pelagianism. By his transgression, Adam injured only himself, not his posterity. In respect to his moral nature, every man is born in precisely the same condition in which Adam was created. There is therefore no original sin.”

“2nd. As to FREE WILL.”

“Augustinianism. By Adam’s transgression the Freedom of the human Will has been entirely lost. In his present corrupt state man can will and do only evil.

Pelagianism. Man’s will is free. Every man has the power to will and to do good as well as the opposite. Hence it depends upon himself whether he be good or evil.”

“3rd. As to GRACE.”

“Augustinianism. If nevertheless man in his present state, wills and does good, it is merely the work of grace. It is an inward, secret, and wonderful operation of God upon man. It s a preceding as well as an accompanying work. By preceding grace, man attains faith, by which he comes to an insight of good, and by which power is given him to will the good. He needs cooperating grace for the performance of every individual good act. As man can do nothing without grace, so he can do nothing against it. It is irresistible. And as man by nature has no merit at all, no respect at all can be had to man’s moral disposition, in imparting grace, but God acts according to his own free will.

Pelagianism. Although by free will, which is a gift of God, man has the capacity of willing and doing good without God’s special aid, yet for the easier performance of it, God revealed the law; for the easier performance, the instruction and example of Christ aid him; and for the easier performance, even the supernatural operations of grace are imparted to him. Grace, in the most limited sense (gracious influence) is given to those”

only who deserve it by the faithful employment of their own powers. But man can resist it.

“4th. As to PREDESTINATION AND REDEMPTION.”

“Augustinianism. From eternity, God made a free and unconditional decree to save a few 2 [2 The doctrine of Augustine does not by any means involve the conclusion that the elect are “ few “ or “ a small number.”] from the mass that was corrupted and subjected to damnation. To those whom he predestinated to this salvation, he gives the requisite means for the purpose. But on the rest, who do not belong to this small number of the elect, the merited ruin falls. Christ came into the world and died for the elect only.

Pelagianism. God’s decree of election and reprobation is founded on prescience. Those of whom God foresaw that they would keep his commands, he predestinated to salvation; the others to damnation. Christ’s redemption is general. But those only need his atoning death who have actually sinned. All, however, by his instruction and example, may be led to higher perfection and virtue.”

A. A. Hodge


Table of Contents

Augustine’s Doctrine of the Bondage of the Will

Contrasting Augustine and the Council of Orange (529 AD) with The Council of Trent (1563)

A.A. Hodge - Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism & Augustinianism

B. B. Warfield - Augustine & the Pelagian Controversy

Historic Documents on Grace Alone

Augustine - A Treatise On Grace and Free Will

Augustine - A Treatise On Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius

Augustine - A Treatiuse On Rebuke and Grace

Augustine - A Treatise On the Grace of Christ and Original Sin

Augustine - A Treatise On the Predestination of the Saints

Augustine - A Treatise On the Gift of Perseverance - 428 or 429.

Augustine - A Work On the Proceedings of Pelagius - 417

Jerome - Against the Pelagians (Book 1)

Jerome - Against the Pelagians (Book 2)

Jerome - Against the Pelagians (Book 3)

Canons of the Council of Orange - 529

Select Quotes from Augustine on Grace and Free Will

 

[Jane_Doe22]

It is serious. How did Calvin and Luther cause the Reformation if what they said was not true?

This argument doesn't make any sense. There have been PLENTY of false movements which have gain popular traction.

I haven't read your Augustine findings yet so I can't comment on them.

I would recommend reading them, even if just from a history of theology standpoint, as they have been extremely influential over time.
Reading them = the actual entire documents with your own eyes. Not a third hand party cherry-picking quotes without the context.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

(Again, with all due respect to you)

From where I'm standing: Calvinism is ALL about force and denial of free will. It is a a doctrine of slavery and hatred.
If you want to use your own words to tell me how you see God offering salvation to every single person, and each person having the choice to accept/reject it, then please do.

No
I am not interested in doing that as you have not responded to anything I have offered to you.
It is about what does the scripture say, not about what you feel.
God had men write scripture, not my words or yours.
Until you respond to what is offered ,it tells me you are not sincere.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No tiptoeing. Every human born has the law of conscious within. They have scriptures to read and the Holy Spirit whispering in her ear.

God wants everybody saved but he forces no one to repent.

That does not mean God would rather they spend eternity in the lake. It means everyone has their own free will choice where they spend eternity.

John 3:7-8
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

One does not and can not see, until God says they see.

 

[farouk]

Augustine’s Writings on Grace and Free Will

Augustine's Writings on Grace and Free Will | Monergism


State in contrast the main distinguishing positions of the Augustinian and Pelagian systems.


“1st. As to ORIGINAL SIN.

“Augustinianism. By the sin of Adam, in whom all men together sinned, sin and all the other positive punishments of Adam’s sin came into the world. By it human nature has been both physically and morally corrupted. Every man brings into the world with him a nature already so corrupt, that it can do nothing but sin. The propagation of this quality of his nature is by concupiscence.

Pelagianism. By his transgression, Adam injured only himself, not his posterity. In respect to his moral nature, every man is born in precisely the same condition in which Adam was created. There is therefore no original sin.”

“2nd. As to FREE WILL.”

“Augustinianism. By Adam’s transgression the Freedom of the human Will has been entirely lost. In his present corrupt state man can will and do only evil.

Pelagianism. Man’s will is free. Every man has the power to will and to do good as well as the opposite. Hence it depends upon himself whether he be good or evil.”

“3rd. As to GRACE.”

“Augustinianism. If nevertheless man in his present state, wills and does good, it is merely the work of grace. It is an inward, secret, and wonderful operation of God upon man. It s a preceding as well as an accompanying work. By preceding grace, man attains faith, by which he comes to an insight of good, and by which power is given him to will the good. He needs cooperating grace for the performance of every individual good act. As man can do nothing without grace, so he can do nothing against it. It is irresistible. And as man by nature has no merit at all, no respect at all can be had to man’s moral disposition, in imparting grace, but God acts according to his own free will.

Pelagianism. Although by free will, which is a gift of God, man has the capacity of willing and doing good without God’s special aid, yet for the easier performance of it, God revealed the law; for the easier performance, the instruction and example of Christ aid him; and for the easier performance, even the supernatural operations of grace are imparted to him. Grace, in the most limited sense (gracious influence) is given to those”

only who deserve it by the faithful employment of their own powers. But man can resist it.

“4th. As to PREDESTINATION AND REDEMPTION.”

“Augustinianism. From eternity, God made a free and unconditional decree to save a few 2 [2 The doctrine of Augustine does not by any means involve the conclusion that the elect are “ few “ or “ a small number.”] from the mass that was corrupted and subjected to damnation. To those whom he predestinated to this salvation, he gives the requisite means for the purpose. But on the rest, who do not belong to this small number of the elect, the merited ruin falls. Christ came into the world and died for the elect only.

Pelagianism. God’s decree of election and reprobation is founded on prescience. Those of whom God foresaw that they would keep his commands, he predestinated to salvation; the others to damnation. Christ’s redemption is general. But those only need his atoning death who have actually sinned. All, however, by his instruction and example, may be led to higher perfection and virtue.”

A. A. Hodge


Table of Contents

Augustine’s Doctrine of the Bondage of the Will

Contrasting Augustine and the Council of Orange (529 AD) with The Council of Trent (1563)

A.A. Hodge - Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism & Augustinianism

B. B. Warfield - Augustine & the Pelagian Controversy

Historic Documents on Grace Alone

Augustine - A Treatise On Grace and Free Will

Augustine - A Treatise On Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius

Augustine - A Treatiuse On Rebuke and Grace

Augustine - A Treatise On the Grace of Christ and Original Sin

Augustine - A Treatise On the Predestination of the Saints

Augustine - A Treatise On the Gift of Perseverance - 428 or 429.

Augustine - A Work On the Proceedings of Pelagius - 417

Jerome - Against the Pelagians (Book 1)

Jerome - Against the Pelagians (Book 2)

Jerome - Against the Pelagians (Book 3)

Canons of the Council of Orange - 529

Select Quotes from Augustine on Grace and Free Will

Warfield wrote some very useful material.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

How about dealing with the totality of Romans 8? It says God for nose who would love him and he then predestined as a mobile with the glorification.

It does not say God predestined who would love him. And it goes on to say nothing in all creation can remove them from God's hands.

Again, those who love him, not those he pre-Destines for salvation.

Romans 8 does not say God knows who will first love Him.
It says for WHOM He did Foreknow, not for What He did foreknow.
He knew those sinners He marked out for salvation,4x the passage says WHOM rom8:29-30

 

[Jane_Doe22]

No
I am not interested in doing that as you have not responded to anything I have offered to you.
It is about what does the scripture say, not about what you feel.
God had men write scripture, not my words or yours.
Until you respond to what is offered ,it tells me you are not sincere.

Again, with all due respect, Ido not find scripture to match what you are saying.

NO!!!! God is not a slaver!!!

This quote does NOT remotely support the slavery you are advocating.
When a sheep chooses to follow the shepard, it is because they are choosing to follow, out of affection to him.
They are not forced, nor threatened via dogs or such things a low-quality sheep herded does.

 

[farouk]

Romans 8 does not say God knows who will first love Him.
It says for WHOM He did Foreknow, not for What He did foreknow.
He knew those sinners He marked out for salvation,4x the passage says WHOM rom8:29-30

Unless grace had drawn me, in the flesh I would never have come of my own accord...

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

(Again, with all due respect to you)

From where I'm standing: Calvinism is ALL about force and denial of free will. It is a a doctrine of slavery and hatred.
If you want to use your own words to tell me how you see God offering salvation to every single person, and each person having the choice to accept/reject it, then please do.

The word Paul used servants is literally willing bondslaves .Not all men have a chance to even hear the gospel.
Those who hear it, reject it until God gives them a new heart.Romans 8:7.
Read a bible and see what it says...1 cor2:14.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Again, with all due respect, Ido not find scripture to match what you are saying.

Read Jn 10:26, Jesus tells them why they do not believe
..you believe not, because you are not my sheep
You would have to open a bible and look at the verses to see everything I am saying

 

[farouk]

The word Paul used servants is literally willing bondslaves .Not all men have a chance to even hear the gospel.
Those who hear it, reject it until God gives them a new heart.Romans 8:7.
Read a bible and see what it says...1 cor2:14.

...just as the Old Testament bondservant's pierced ear showed that s/he was now the willing participant in a new Master-servant relationship. With a new heart we are made willing.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Read Jn 10:26, Jesus tells them why they do not believe
..you believe not, because you are not my sheep

I read this scripture, and it clearly states that they do not believe because they have rejected these teachings.
It doesn't say anything about belief only coming through force.

The word Paul used servants is literally willing bondslaves .Not all men have a chance to even hear the gospel.
Those who hear it, reject it until God gives them a new heart.Romans 8:7.
Read a bible and see what it says...1 cor2:14.

WILLING. A person has the CHOICE.
It is not forced.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I read this scripture, and it clearly states that they do not believe because they have rejected these teachings.
It doesn't say anything about belief only coming through force.

WILLING. A person has the CHOICE.
It is not forced.

You cannot read with understanding. It says nothing about force. It gives the reason they do not believe
YOU BELIEVE NOT
YOU BELIEVE NOT BECAUSE
YOU BELIEVE NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP
MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, I KNOW THEM AND THEY FOLLOW ME

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You cannot read with understanding. It says nothing about force. It gives the reason they do not believe
YOU BELIEVE NOT
YOU BELIEVE NOT BECAUSE
YOU BELIEVE NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP
MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, I KNOW THEM AND THEY FOLLOW ME

Again, this doesn't have anything to do with force.

A sheep chooses to willingly follow the shepard out of love. It is not out of force like a low-quality sheep herder.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

My beliefs: God creates and loves all people, and offers His gift to all people. If someone choose to reject God's gift, their damnation is not because God didn't love them.
Calvinist beliefs are not that.

Romans 8:20-21
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

‘vanity’ ...God chooses, not man. The birth is from above, not of man or man’s will or abilities. The circumcision is made without hands, made with God’s hand...man doesn’t do it. Then we reduce it all to ...but I believed first therefore I made the choice.

We believe because it is a work of God(Spirit). The word says the work of God is this: we believe on the Son.
‘born from above’ circumcised of God.

“The work of God” implies not man’s work but the word says “God’s work.” Is this.
Romans 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

How many times does God need to say it is Him so no man can claim it is of man? Yet we still do. We are not listening yet we claim ears. Jesus Christ crucified all things vain and void ...there is no respect of persons. why would God who freed us from the bondage of vanity and puffed up pride then put us back underneath ‘man does it’.

John 3:7-8
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I loving shepard I *choose* to follow. Not a slave master.

Do you have a problem with Christ ruling? To know He will and IS ruling over all? No. Because Christ does not rule as man rules but by Spirit. Do we look with hope toward the rule of the children of God? No. Because God says all the creation is anxious to be set free unto the children of God.

Which is better:
the spirit of a man ruled by the flesh.
Or the flesh ruled by the Spirit?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Romans 8:20-21
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

‘vanity’ ...God chooses, not man. The birth is from above, not of man or man’s will or abilities. The circumcision is made without hands, made with God’s hand...man doesn’t do it. Then we reduce it all to ...but I believed first therefore I made the choice.

We believe because it is a work of God(Spirit). The word says the work of God is this: we believe on the Son.
‘born from above’ circumcised of God.

“The work of God” implies not man’s work but the word says “God’s work.” Is this.
Romans 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

How many times does God need to say it is Him so no man can claim it is of man? Yet we still do. We are not listening yet we claim ears. Jesus Christ crucified all things vain and void ...there is no respect of persons. why would God who freed us from the bondage of vanity and puffed up pride then put us back underneath ‘man does it’.

John 3:7-8
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

None of this supports a God of force, or one that made people for no other purpose than to force them to Hell.

Do you have a problem with Christ ruling? To know He will and IS ruling over all? No. Because Christ does not rule as man rules but by Spirit. Do we look with hope toward the rule of the children of God? No. Because God says all the creation is anxious to be set free unto the children of God.

Which is better:
the spirit of a man ruled by the flesh.
Or the flesh ruled by the Spirit?

God is not a slaver. He does not force (as Calvinism teaches).
God is the good shepard who's sheep willingly follow Him. He offers this same love and gift to ALL men (not just some).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

God is not a slaver. He does not force (as Calvinism teaches).
God is the good shepard who's sheep willingly follow Him. He offers this same love and gift to ALL men (not just some).

They follow Him because they know His voice. He said He knows those sheep that are His. All implies God chooses the sheep, gives them ears to hear the shepherd call and comes to Him.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

They follow Him because they know His voice. he said He knows those sheep that are His. All implies God chooses the sheep, gives them ears to hear the shepherd call and comes.

You keep overlooking that fact that Calvinism also teaches that God created some people just to torture them in Hell. He never loved them, He never died for them. He just created them fallen, devoid of choice, and then forced them to Hell.

This is the OPPOSITE of the God that so loved the world He gave His only begotten son.