The Five Points of Calvinism

[CoreIssue]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit believers of all time had. Pentecost was the baptism in the Spirit that only happened sporadically in the OT.

The Holy Spirit falling on someone is not the same as baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Old Testament saints Christ led from paradise to heaven were baptized in the Holy Spirit. They had to be to enter heaven. That was before Pentecost but after his crucifixion.

 

[Dave L]

The Holy Spirit falling on someone is not the same as baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Old Testament saints Christ led from paradise to heaven were baptized in the Holy Spirit. They had to be to enter heaven. That was before Pentecost but after his crucifixion.

All believers have the Holy Spirit. That is why they believe. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit for all believers is now common place since Pentecost.

 

[CoreIssue]

All believers have the Holy Spirit. That is why they believe. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit for all believers is now common place since Pentecost.

Today all believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit. None were before the resurrection.

The Saints Christ led from paradise to heaven were baptized then. They did not wait for Pentecost.

 

[Dave L]

Today all believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit. None were before the resurrection.

The Saints Christ led from paradise to heaven were baptized then. They did not wait for Pentecost.

This is what we are saying. Pentecost marked the beginning of the baptism in the Holy Spirit for all believers. But all believers of all time had the Holy Spirit or they would not have been believers.

 

[Waiting on him]

This is what we are saying. Pentecost marked the beginning of the baptism in the Holy Spirit for all believers. But all believers of all time had the Holy Spirit or they would not have been believers.

I appreciate all of your answers, I’ve often contemplated Peters life prior to Pentecost, that it doesn’t seem to yield a lot of fruit. I do see CIs point of it coming and going. That is why their faith fails, but Christ would blow on them or speak to them to restore their faith. Faith is definitely a gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

I appreciate all of your answers, I’ve often contemplated Peters life prior to Pentecost, that it doesn’t seem to yield a lot of fruit. I do see CIs point of it coming and going. That is why their faith fails, but Christ would blow on them or speak to them to restore their faith. Faith is definitely a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter received power that OT believers had sporadically. But all believers of all time were saved and had the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit thereof.

 

[Waiting on him]

Peter received power that OT believers had sporadically. But all believers of all time were saved and had the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit thereof.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is what we are saying. Pentecost marked the beginning of the baptism in the Holy Spirit for all believers. But all believers of all time had the Holy Spirit or they would not have been believers.

Pentecost did not marked the beginning of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Those Christ led from paradise at his resurrection were baptized by the Holy Spirit.

And no, believers of all times did not have the Holy Spirit. You only get the Holy Spirit if baptized in the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit falling on someone is not the same thing. And only a few in the Old Testament had the Holy Spirit fall on them.

You're trying to push your version of Calvinism here.

 

[CoreIssue]

I see efforts to talk around the facts in defense of Calvinism.

Per Calvinism no one can be a believer in God. But here I'm seeing some saying there were believers that did not have the Holy Spirit.

Can't have it both ways, folks. Either it is impossible to seek God without the Holy Spirit or any variation of Calvinism is false.

Either people have free will or they do not.

 

[Waiting on him]

I see efforts to talk around the facts in defense of Calvinism.

Per Calvinism no one can be a believer in God. But here I'm seeing some saying there were believers that did not have the Holy Spirit.

Can't have it both ways, folks. Either it is impossible to seek God without the Holy Spirit or any variation of Calvinism is false.

Either people have free will or they do not.

There’s definitely a lot of good examples of fruits produced while full of the Spirit vs fruits displayed while devoid of the spirit. In the Old Testament that is

 

[Jane_Doe22]

No problem at all! Thank you for your willingness to actually listen rather than just berate and condemn.
I would say generally yes, this is a pretty fair recap, though if I were to explain the reasoning behind this according to Scriptures it is much more solid than I could ever make it sound apart from them. Though I would say that it is just because God declared that the punishment for sin would be death, and that the people whom He creates and does not choose are simply baring the punishment that God promised.

This is a very nice discussion, thank you.

Roger that.
Would it bother you if you were one of these people whom God created pre-destined to Hell? Or if a loved one was/is?

 

[CoreIssue]

There’s definitely a lot of good examples of fruits produced while full of the Spirit vs fruits displayed while devoid of the spirit.

So you agree an unsaved person can come to Christ of their own free will.

Understanding. of course, coming to Christ does not negate the need for repentance and the new birth via the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

Hello Mark,

God is a Covenant keep God.
Before creation God considered mankind as fallen In Adam.
Jonathan Edwards explained that for Jesus to be the lamb slain before the world;
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He explained that Jesus had to be in place as the one mediator of the people of God or God would have had to destroy rebellious man.

Hi Anthony,

This is an interesting verse. My understanding is that the clause "From the foundation of the world" can rightfully belong with "the Lamb slain", or "whose names are not written in the book of life", or more to the point, "whose names do not remain written".

So that the verse could be saying that Jesus was slain since the foundation of the world, however, that seems to me to conflict with the clear teaching that Jesus died here on planet earth once for all. There is also the matter that Jesus gained His physical human body within which He could die when He was incarnated, not before, so, how could He die before the creation?

However, given that God told Moses that the one who sins "him will I blot from my book", it sounds like the names are written already, then removed for the accounting of sin. Those to whom sin is not imputed remain. This seems to me to match well with the idea in Revelation that the prophet is not speaking of Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world, rather that those whose names do not remain written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, these will worship the beast.

In a parallel passage:

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

There is no mention of Jesus slain, however, the same wording appears otherwise:

"whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,"

From this I would conclude that the we are not being taught here that Jesus was "slain from the foundation of the world", rather, that "the lamb slain" has a book of life, and in that book are some whose names do not remain "from the foundation of the world.

Also, if God considered Mankind as fallen before creation, since we're talking about the death and depravity of sin, how was it that God, even after creating man, declared everything good? Wouldn't this make God calling evil good? That doesn't make sense to me.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

Nothing changed but the context.
In Jn 6...the Covenant of redemption, and those to whom it is addressed....All who are given SHALL COME...

in Jn12....deals with the gospel being offered to all men without distinction...world wide, but it does not speak of who actually comes as jn 6 did.

All men whoever lived were not drawn. Some were already dead when Jesus was "lifted up".

I'm looking at that there was an exclusion in place before Jesus' death, that is, you can only come if God draws you, and other were not drawn, so they couldn't come.

But Jesus declared that after He were crucified, that He, not the Father, would draw all, not only some men.

Isn't that how it reads?

Much love!
Mark

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I appreciate all of your answers, I’ve often contemplated Peters life prior to Pentecost, that it doesn’t seem to yield a lot of fruit. I do see CIs point of it coming and going. That is why their faith fails, but Christ would blow on them or speak to them to restore their faith. Faith is definitely a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 22:31-32
[31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Matthew 18:3
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Colossians 1:13
[13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Hebrews 11:5
[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

 

[Mjh29]

Roger that.
Would it bother you if you were one of these people whom God created pre-destined to Hell? Or if a loved one was/is?

This is a tricky question. For one thing, I would never know the feeling, because I have been chosen, so in that regard I would say that if I wasn't chosen, I would be in sin and therefore would hate God so no I don't think it would bother me.

I can relate to the loved-ones not being chosen. One of my family members has had a long, troubled road, and I am honestly not sure whether or not he is one of God's chosen. What I can do is petition Christ, and plead for my fallen family member, but ultimately, my chief want is for God to be glorified.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This is a tricky question. For one thing, I would never know the feeling, because I have been chosen, so in that regard I would say that if I wasn't chosen, I would be in sin and therefore would hate God so no I don't think it would bother me.

I can relate to the loved-ones not being chosen. One of my family members has had a long, troubled road, and I am honestly not sure whether or not he is one of God's chosen. What I can do is petition Christ, and plead for my fallen family member, but ultimately, my chief want is for God to be glorified.

So you're ok with your love one being created to be tortured in Hell?
And why do you pray for him if none of this has to do with men's will and his fate was determined before he was born?

 

[Mjh29]

So you're ok with your love one being created to be tortured in Hell?
And why do you pray for him if none of this has to do with men's will and his fate was determined before he was born?

Of course it grieves me to see my family going through this, but my feelings do not make God's actions unjust. Look at it from God's point of view; a creation he made perfect was warned of the exact consequence of its actions, and then chose to defy God anyways. God is merely fulfilling His promise. He does not owe salvation to anyone, and would be perfectly just letting us all die in sin and burn in hell. However, in order to display the richness of His mercy, He chose to save some for reasons we do not know. Give me one good reason why my family member deserves to be saved? There are none. No one deserves to be saved. Give me one good reason why they deserve to be cast into hell? There are many, many reasons, but the chief would be the rebellion all men have against God.

Why pray for him? Because God commands me to do so. Will it have any effect? Of course! God promises to listen to the prayers of His people. I pray for him because God commands me to do so, and this is enough reason for me and should be enough reason for anyone else who claims to believe in Christ

 

[Waiting on him]

Luke 22:31-32
[31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Matthew 18:3
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Colossians 1:13
[13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Hebrews 11:5
[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Very interesting;converted??

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Of course it grieves me to see my family going through this, but my feelings do not make God's actions unjust.

Ok.

Look at it from God's point of view; a creation he made perfect was warned of the exact consequence of its actions, and then chose to defy God anyways. God is merely fulfilling His promise.

Rewinding here--
Was this person made perfect, or were they made fallen?
You said "choose" here-- to choose imply that this person has the free will to choose follow God or to rebel. Do you believe he had/has that choice, or was everything predetermined before his birth?

Why pray for him? Because God commands me to do so. Will it have any effect? Of course! God promises to listen to the prayers of His people. I pray for him because God commands me to do so, and this is enough reason for me and should be enough reason for anyone else who claims to believe in Christ

You're hoping that God will change his mind about this person's pre-determined fate?