The Five Points of Calvinism

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marks

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Of course it grieves me to see my family going through this, but my feelings do not make God's actions unjust. Look at it from God's point of view; a creation he made perfect was warned of the exact consequence of its actions, and then chose to defy God anyways. God is merely fulfilling His promise. He does not owe salvation to anyone, and would be perfectly just letting us all die in sin and burn in hell. However, in order to display the richness of His mercy, He chose to save some for reasons we do not know. Give me one good reason why my family member deserves to be saved? There are none. No one deserves to be saved. Give me one good reason why they deserve to be cast into hell? There are many, many reasons, but the chief would be the rebellion all men have against God.

Why pray for him? Because God commands me to do so. Will it have any effect? Of course! God promises to listen to the prayers of His people. I pray for him because God commands me to do so, and this is enough reason for me and should be enough reason for anyone else who claims to believe in Christ


But doesn't God love all the people He made? Doesn't God want us?
 

Jane_Doe22

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Your God is a mushy pushover who is obligated to give every single sinner the exact same treatment or you call Him unfair. As though we as fallen man even have the right to make such an accusation!
For the record: this is not an accurate statement as to how most non-Calvinists view God's. I can't speak for all, but as for myself and vast vast majority of non-Calvinists I've spoken to would strongly disagree with this statement.
 

CoreIssue

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1.) Wow. So God is obligated to save us?
2.) And he loves all of mankind in the same sense of creator-creature love, but that does not stop Him from allowing us to go the the hell we so desperately run towards.
3.) Calvinism sees a God that does whatever He pleases with His own creation. Your God is a mushy pushover who is obligated to give every single sinner the exact same treatment or you call Him unfair. As though we as fallen man even have the right to make such an accusation!

He is obligated out of his love creation, not some legal duty.

Your point 2 is free will.

Your point 3 contradicts your points 1 and 2.
 

Jane_Doe22

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1.) Yes. God created man perfect, and as a result of our sin all born from the seed of Adam are now under his curse, unless God chooses to change their hearts and wills.
So did Adam thwart God's perfect plan, or was this fallen world God's plan all along?
2.) There are many mysteries of God I cannot understand... what kind of God would we serve if we could completely understand Him?
Ok, I see your logic there.
 

Mjh29

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He is obligated out of his love creation, not some legal duty.

Your point 2 is free will.

Your point 3 contradicts your points 1 and 2.

1.) Who obligates God?
2.) Nope. It's called Sin nature ie Fallen Will
3.) God does what He pleases with His creation.... this can include letting them go about their sinful ways according to their sin natures.

con·tra·dict
verb
1.deny the truth of (a statement) by asserting the opposite

I do not see a contradiction here.
 

Mjh29

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So did Adam thwart God's perfect plan, or was this fallen world God's plan all along?

Ok, I see your logic there.

This was all part of His plan to bring Himself maximum glory
 

Jane_Doe22

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This was all part of His plan to bring Himself maximum glory
Just to recap that I'm understanding it correctly:
It was God's master plan from before the world was created that Bob would be a slave to sin, devoid of will, and sentenced to Hell for eternity. This was done to bring God maximum glory to himself.
Am I understanding you correctly?
 

Waiting on him

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So you agree an unsaved person can come to Christ of their own free will.

Understanding. of course, coming to Christ does not negate the need for repentance and the new birth via the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Sorry I was tied up, but i don’t see that at all looking at the witnesses what i see is free will making every effort to flee God. Free will said go in the opposite direction of Egypt and Nineveh and so on but then the Spirit intervenes and Fulfills it’s will in a man.
 

CoreIssue

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1.) Who obligates God?
2.) Nope. It's called Sin nature ie Fallen Will
3.) God does what He pleases with His creation.... this can include letting them go about their sinful ways according to their sin natures.

con·tra·dict
verb
1.deny the truth of (a statement) by asserting the opposite

I do not see a contradiction here.
Obligates himself

Calvinism doesn't say it allows us to go to hell. It says some are predestined for hell just as some are predestined for salvation.

Per you those who go to hell are doing so in free will. Those who go to heaven are not.

But yet he deny free will.
 

Mjh29

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Just to recap that I'm understanding it correctly:
It was God's master plan from before the world was created that Bob would be a slave to sin, devoid of will, and sentenced to Hell for eternity. This was done to bring God maximum glory to himself.
Am I understanding you correctly?

It was God's master plan to allow Adam to choose for his race whether to serve God or Satan, and then even after Adam elected to damn his entire race to still show forth his mercy and love by saving for Himself a peculiar people, freeing the will that they themselves gave over to Satan and giving them new hearts to serve Him. Others He allows to do exactly as pleases them and to continue in their sin and rebellion, still keeping them alive with every breath they take to show forth His patience and longsuffering.

So yes.
 

Jane_Doe22

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It was God's master plan to allow Adam to choose for his race whether to serve God or Satan, and then even after Adam elected to damn his entire race to still show forth his mercy and love by saving for Himself a peculiar people, freeing the will that they themselves gave over to Satan and giving them new hearts to serve Him. Others He allows to do exactly as pleases them and to continue in their sin and rebellion, still keeping them alive with every breath they take to show forth His patience and longsuffering.

So yes.
Ok. You've made your beliefs very clear and directly answered questions. I thank you for that.
Is there anything I can answer for you?
 

CoreIssue

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Sorry I was tied up, but i don’t see that at all looking at the witnesses what i see is free will making every effort to flee God. Free will said go in the opposite direction of Egypt and Nineveh and so on but then the Spirit intervenes and Fulfills it’s will in a man.

Wow, that is quite the rewrite.
 

Mjh29

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Ok. You've made your beliefs very clear and directly answered questions. I thank you for that.
Is there anything I can answer for you?

Thank you for at least taking the time to read, and the consideration to be civil. I would simply ask what you believe regarding the matter?
 

VictoryinJesus

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Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

Here is a question I have...

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world...from the foundation of which world? Slain before the foundation of this world which is shaken. Or the world to come which remains.

Luke 6:48-49
[48] He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. [49] But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Ephesians 2:19-22
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone ; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:11
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


John 18:36
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
 
D

Dave L

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Here is a question I have...

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world...from the foundation of which world? Slain before the foundation of this world which is shaken. Or the world to come which remains.

Luke 6:48-49
[48] He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. [49] But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Ephesians 2:19-22
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone ; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:11
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


John 18:36
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
God's decree is eternal, never having a beginning or end.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Thank you for at least taking the time to read, and the consideration to be civil. I would simply ask what you believe regarding the matter?
Honestly, I hold views very different than yours. I see the biggest origin of the different logic trains being in the questions "what is justice" and "what is power / it's use".
 

CoreIssue

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It was God's master plan to allow Adam to choose for his race whether to serve God or Satan, and then even after Adam elected to damn his entire race to still show forth his mercy and love by saving for Himself a peculiar people, freeing the will that they themselves gave over to Satan and giving them new hearts to serve Him. Others He allows to do exactly as pleases them and to continue in their sin and rebellion, still keeping them alive with every breath they take to show forth His patience and longsuffering.

So yes.

Where does it say Adam dammed his whole race to hell?

He stuck us with sin nature for sure, but that is far different from condemning everyone to hell unless God chooses to spare them.

Where does it say in free will they gave themselves to Satan?

His patients and long-suffering for a what reason?