The Five Points of Calvinism

[Mjh29]

Rewinding here--
Was this person made perfect, or were they made fallen?
You said "choose" here-- to choose imply that this person has the free will to choose follow God or to rebel. Do you believe he had/has that choice, or was everything predetermined before his birth?

Adam was given a choice, and had a free will.... he promptly used this free will to sell his and his entire race's souls and wills to the devil rather that follow the command of God.

You're hoping that God will change his mind about this person's pre-determined fate?

Of course not. God never changes. He is the same from eternity. I pray and petition because I am commanded to do so. I pray that it is in God's will that my family be saved, but if not for me to accept this and to still praise Him. Most importantly, I pray that He do what brings Him the most glory and honor.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Very interesting;converted??

To turn

 

[Dave L]

Pentecost did not marked the beginning of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Those Christ led from paradise at his resurrection were baptized by the Holy Spirit.

And no, believers of all times did not have the Holy Spirit. You only get the Holy Spirit if baptized in the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit falling on someone is not the same thing. And only a few in the Old Testament had the Holy Spirit fall on them.

You're trying to push your version of Calvinism here.

I'm not a Calvinist. You cannot support your claims from scripture even if I was.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

For the sake of making writing easier, I'm going to call your wayward loved one Bob.

Adam was given a choice, and had a free will.... he promptly used this free will to sell his and his entire race's souls and wills to the devil rather that follow the command of God..

That's Adam. My question is about Bob.

Was Bob made perfect or fallen?
And does Bob have free will to choose to whether or not follow Christ, or was Bob's fate pre-determined before his birth?

Of course not. God never changes. He is the same from eternity. I pray and petition because I am commanded to do so. I pray that it is in God's will that my family be saved, but if not for me to accept this and to still praise Him. Most importantly, I pray that He do what brings Him the most glory and honor.

I get praying because it's a commandment.
I get praying for your comfort/acceptance of how things go.
But I'm confused about petitioning God about Bob when God already pre-determined everything before Bob was born.

 

[Mjh29]

For the sake of making writing easier, I'm going to call your wayward loved one Bob.

That's Adam. My question is about Bob.

Was Bob made perfect or fallen?
And does Bob have free will to choose to whether or not follow Christ, or was Bob's fate pre-determined before his birth?

I get praying because it's a commandment.
I get praying for your comfort/acceptance of how things go.
But I'm confused about petitioning God about Bob when God already pre-determined everything before Bob was born.

Ok, so Bob does not have a free will; his will is enslaved to Satan, just as is every other human beings after Adam's fall. Bob was made fallen and will continue to be deceitful and desperately wicked unless God changes Him

I petition God to do what will bring Him the most glory, be it doing what I want and saving Bob, or by letting Him go the way of His hearts desires, and though it would pain me, I pray that I am able to accept His plan as what brings Him ultimate glory.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Ok, so Bob does not have a free will; his will is enslaved to Satan, just as is every other human beings after Adam's fall. Bob was made fallen and will continue to be deceitful and desperately wicked unless God changes Him

Ok, I"m still figuring out your logic/beliefs here and thank you for your patience and willingness to answer. Now earlier you said:

Look at it from God's point of view; a creation he made perfect was warned of the exact consequence of its actions, and then chose to defy God anyways. God is merely fulfilling His promise.

Can you help me mesh these two statements in how they relate to Bob specifically?

I petition God to do what will bring Him the most glory, be it doing what I want and saving Bob, or by letting Him go the way of His hearts desires, and though it would pain me, I pray that I am able to accept His plan as what brings Him ultimate glory.

But isn't God going to do what brings him the most glory anyways? Then why petition him to do what he's going to do anyways?

 

[CoreIssue]

Of course it grieves me to see my family going through this, but my feelings do not make God's actions unjust. Look at it from God's point of view; a creation he made perfect was warned of the exact consequence of its actions, and then chose to defy God anyways. God is merely fulfilling His promise. He does not owe salvation to anyone, and would be perfectly just letting us all die in sin and burn in hell. However, in order to display the richness of His mercy, He chose to save some for reasons we do not know. Give me one good reason why my family member deserves to be saved? There are none. No one deserves to be saved. Give me one good reason why they deserve to be cast into hell? There are many, many reasons, but the chief would be the rebellion all men have against God.

Why pray for him? Because God commands me to do so. Will it have any effect? Of course! God promises to listen to the prayers of His people. I pray for him because God commands me to do so, and this is enough reason for me and should be enough reason for anyone else who claims to believe in Christ

God is not unjust but Calvinism is most assuredly unjust.

Adam and Eve defied God, but you want to condemn everyone for what they did and try to call it just.

We inherited sin because of them but God gave us a way out. Not some of us, but all of us.

God never owed anyone salvation. But in his will he wants everyone to have it.

No one deserves salvation, but he loved everyone so much he sent the second person of the Trinity to incarnate in flesh and pay the sum price for those who would accept it. Accept in free well.

In no, by your formula prayer is an exercise in futility. God determined for creation who would be saved and who would be damned.

So you think you are one of the chosen. By your own definition of humanity you do not know that.

Your God is unjust, unloving, hypocrite, narcissist, vile and worse.

He is a puppetmaster you think we are his puppets.

The gospel is an exercise in futility since it is based on free well which you say is a lie.

Our lives are a farce by your beliefs. God could have simply created us in heaven and hell.

The White throne judgment is meaningless. An exercise in futility.

 

[Mjh29]

God never owed anyone salvation. But in his will he wants everyone to have it.

What force is above God's will that can stop it from happening then?

 

[Enoch111]

It appears then you are contradicting yourself when you mentioned that and I’m going to paraphrase...you said that God doesn’t save some and others no. Is not what 1Cor. 15 is saying ?

1 Cor 15 is addressed to Christians and is focused on Christ and the resurrection of the saints. It has nothing to say about those who are not saved. The ones who are not saved choose to disregard the Gospel.

 

[CoreIssue]

I'm not a Calvinist. You cannot support your claims from scripture even if I was.

Are you denying in the resurrection of Christ led the Old Testament Saints to heaven from paradise?

Are you claiming people could be born again in the Old Testament without the blood of Christ?

Where does it say the born-again experience was at Pentecost. I see the gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed in the witnessing to people for salvation and to give the start of the church a boost.

Israel did not have the Mosaic law or 10 Commandments prior to Moses. But they were still God's chosen people.

 

[Mjh29]

Ok, I"m still figuring out your logic/beliefs here and thank you for your patience and willingness to answer. Now earlier you said:

Can you help me mesh these two statements in how they relate to Bob specifically?






But isn't God going to do what brings him the most glory anyways? Then why petition him to do what he's going to do anyways?

When Adam sinned, he enslaved all men, including Bob, to Satan. This means that we are all born naturally hating God. We go through our lives never concerned with God and His glory, and are indeed doing the desires of our fallen hearts when rebelling against Him. Now, when God looks at Bob, He had every right to allow Bob to fall into the pits of hell towards which he sprints, and if this is His decision then it is just. But perhaps he will chose to spare Him and give Him mercy in His own time, which means that He is one of the chosen of God. And yes, either way God is going to do whatever He wills, but praying and petitioning Him is commanded. Perhaps God chose to spare Him at the foundation of the world, and He may choose to allow Bob to do exactly what he wants to do. Either way, God is completely just.

 

[Dave L]

Are you denying in the resurrection of Christ led the Old Testament Saints to heaven from paradise?

Are you claiming people could be born again in the Old Testament without the blood of Christ?

Where does it say the born-again experience was at Pentecost. I see the gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed in the witnessing to people for salvation and to give the start of the church a boost.

Israel did not have the Mosaic law or 10 Commandments prior to Moses. But they were still God's chosen people.

You do not understand enough to ask the right questions. Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. You think he would welsh on paying for sin and the Father could not trust him until he did.

 

[mjrhealth]

I'm not a Calvinist. But the truth divides and venting will not help you to understand it. You need to listen and prove it is not true while keeping a cool head and using scripture.

Why you so angry, whenever the truth comes out you get mad, venting what has that to do with Christ, you have clearly stated you dont hear from God, so why you here, all you know is what you think is truth, Christ is the truth, when you find Him you will find the truth, and what has He to do with mens doctirnes and fables. You say you dont hear of Him so you are not of Him, that is your choice.

 

[CoreIssue]

What force is above God's will that can stop it from happening then?

Wrong question. Why did God make salvation available by free will. Answer: love and justice.

He loves his creation and is responsible for it.

He loves all the angels created. But that won't stop him from tossing the angels who rebel late for eternity out of justice.

Calvinism does not see a loving God. They see a self absorbed God.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

When Adam sinned, he enslaved all men, including Bob, to Satan. This means that we are all born naturally hating God. We go through our lives never concerned with God and His glory, and are indeed doing the desires of our fallen hearts when rebelling against Him.

So Adam made Bob fallen and devoid of free will?

. And yes, either way God is going to do whatever He wills, but praying and petitioning Him is commanded. Perhaps God chose to spare Him at the foundation of the world, and He may choose to allow Bob to do exactly what he wants to do. Either way, God is completely just.

I guess I'm just not sure why God would order men to petition God for change, when God is going to just do whatever God was already planning on doing.

 

[CoreIssue]

When Adam sinned, he enslaved all men, including Bob, to Satan. This means that we are all born naturally hating God. We go through our lives never concerned with God and His glory, and are indeed doing the desires of our fallen hearts when rebelling against Him. Now, when God looks at Bob, He had every right to allow Bob to fall into the pits of hell towards which he sprints, and if this is His decision then it is just. But perhaps he will chose to spare Him and give Him mercy in His own time, which means that He is one of the chosen of God. And yes, either way God is going to do whatever He wills, but praying and petitioning Him is commanded. Perhaps God chose to spare Him at the foundation of the world, and He may choose to allow Bob to do exactly what he wants to do. Either way, God is completely just.

Where does it say Adam was enslaved to Satan.

 

[Mjh29]

Wrong question. Why did God make salvation available by free will. Answer: love and justice.

He loves his creation and is responsible for it.

He loves all the angels created. But that won't stop him from tossing the angels who rebel late for eternity out of justice.

Calvinism does not see a loving God. They see a self absorbed God.

1.) Wow. So God is obligated to save us?
2.) And he loves all of mankind in the same sense of creator-creature love, but that does not stop Him from allowing us to go the the hell we so desperately run towards.
3.) Calvinism sees a God that does whatever He pleases with His own creation. Your God is a mushy pushover who is obligated to give every single sinner the exact same treatment or you call Him unfair. As though we as fallen man even have the right to make such an accusation!

 

[mjrhealth]

how could I possibly hinder God?

Because you dont believe that just like in the garden of Eden, He can speak to His children.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelie

still hasnt changed

 

[CoreIssue]

You do not understand enough to ask the right questions. Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. You think he would welsh on paying for sin and the Father could not trust him until he did.

Jesus did not exist in the Old Testament. His flesh was created at the incarnation and the eternal second person of the Godhead indwelt it.

You do not understand how the revelations of God changed over time. There has always been a route to God.

 

[Mjh29]

So Adam made Bob fallen and devoid of free will?

I guess I'm just not sure why God would order men to petition God for change, when God is going to just do whatever God was already planning on doing.

1.) Yes. God created man perfect, and as a result of our sin all born from the seed of Adam are now under his curse, unless God chooses to change their hearts and wills.

2.) There are many mysteries of God I cannot understand... what kind of God would we serve if we could completely understand Him?