Why Christians Disagree

[Vince]

I meant no offense or personal attack, and apologize if something inadvertently came across that way. I simply didn't know to what degree you have studied theology, hence why I asked the question.
For example, you cite "salvation by works", and having studied dozens of different Christian schools of thought, I can tell you that there are zero whom believe in salvation by works Rather, the claim of "salvation by works" is usually a straw man argument made to quickly misrepresent another's beliefs.

This is untrue. The Catholic Church in the Council of Trent and Vatican II deny salvation by grace alone and requires works. Seventh day Adventists require works as well if you look at how they define faith. These people call themselves Christians.

 

[Vince]

The evidence is so overwhelming that a blind man could see it....but God is so wise that He can hide in plain sight so that only the blind are able to see. The wisdom of God is so great that many people can't see the obvious.

This is nonsense. You say the evidence is overwhelming but then you don't give any evidence. This is the kind of answer I get a lot from Christians. These are not real answers but attempts at answering so you don't have to get specific about it. At least this is how it seems to me.

 

[Vince]

I would agree with that! Who can deny it!!
What a mixed up lot we are
But the thing is ...However the gospel is preached , whatever flavour ...Jesus Christ is central.

Welcome to the Site. Nice that you have FatalMoves here as a buddy.

That is not enough. What abut Jesus? What does Jesus have to do with salvation? Look up Red Letter Christians, they don't believe that Jesus died for forgiveness of sins, they believe god just forgives without a sacrifice.

 

[Vince]

IF that is the "gospel" you believe!!

ie "Gospel meaning = Good News.

I don't believe any gospel. I am just repeating what some Christians say is true.

 

[Vince]

As a corporate body, perhaps not. But personally, there would surely be numerous opinions , innumerable number of opinions, as to the type of god you reject. Mostly I suspect based on the sometimes warped divergence of opinion within Christianity itself as to what God is like. And like you, I also reject some of those views, as is evidenced by the many times I have disagreed with others here on this forum which divergence of opinion sparked your original question.

I don't think you understand atheism. We don't care or claim to know what a god would or should be like. I am simply saying that I don't have enough evidence to believe a god exists.

The point I am making is this. How can atheism possibly come to any agreement on who God is, what He is like, etc when those who profess to know Him, can't agree?Your challenge to the church is therefore fully justified, however, there is a truth to be known and the promise of scripture is that you can find it if you search deeply enough and earnestly enough, and you are willing to forsake the junk in favour of what light you receive. I think therefore the short answer to your question, why so much disagreement with Christianity as to some even basic doctrines, is that far too many are unwilling to give up the junk. So if they retain the junk, God offers no further light, and they remain in darkness.

Ok, bit why doen't god do something to make it clearer for nonbelievers? Surely he can on the doctrine of salvation if he truly wants all to be saved.

 

[Vince]

And you said atheists don't have an opinion on what God is like???? Here is a classic example of what I am talking about...a warped opinion of god based on Christianity's warped opinion.

Nope. I have no ability to know what god is like. I don't claim that god tortures people I can only repeat what some Christians believe. That is all I was doing. Sowing where Christianity is a confused mess.

 

[Willie T]

That is not enough. What abut Jesus? What does Jesus have to do with salvation? Look up Red Letter Christians, they don't believe that Jesus died for forgiveness of sins, they believe god just forgives without a sacrifice.

When I was a child, I thought dogs were males, and cats were females of the same species. So, what? I used to work at a Mental hospital... you could hardly keep track of which patient thought they were, what.

You gonna base your destiny on what others think, or are you going to begin thinking for yourself, and having the guts to go to your grave trusting in THAT belief? In a church I once attended, they spelled FAITH, R-I-S-K.

 

[Taken]

There is definitely an event that takes place,

I agree. And I think most agree on that point.

It is the when and why "at a particular" time, the Disagreement spirals. IMO

As to the where when and how I have no idea.

And I would say, when and why then is revealed in scripture.
(Not in a fashion in what men want to know, like a year, date, hour.)

But in speculation the where is where God decides the when is when God decides and how is is beyond mans comprehension.

What knowledge God reveals IS for man to know. What knowledge God withholds IS not yet for man to know.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Vince]

Fundamentally, all Christians believe salvation comes through our belief in Christ (John 3:16). We all believe he died for our transgression, rose from the dead, and is coming back in judgement. So there's no disagreement on the basics, but just some different interpretations of the more minor stuff. Its up to each individual to study, learn, and grow in the faith. No ones understanding is perfect, but as long as you accept the teachings and example of Christ, we are promised eternal life.

This is not true. Not all people that claim to be Christians agree with this. See Red Letter Christians that don't believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. They just believe god forgives without a sacrifice. There are some that call themselves Christians that don't believe he rose from the dead.

 

[Vince]

I've seen this a lot too. I think that Christians all interpret the bible the way they read it. Scripture says that the things of the Spirit are spiritually discerned so it's unusual to see so many interpretations. A Christian said to me a long time ago: "Christians like to cut other Christians up." I've found her words to be true.

That's a good question!

And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The natural man does notaccept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 1 Cor. 2:14

My point is that not even the spiritual man seems to know how to come to the truth of scripture.

 

[Vince]

The layout of the Bible is complicated.
...meaning;
The Bible does not read like a novel, with a handful of characters.

It has applicability to every single person ever naturally born or will be naturally born.
...and what applies to the era and knowledge revealed DOES NOT, apply the same to every person ever naturally born.
...thus how an individual becomes saved, applies to the extent of the knowledge that was given them during their era and life time.

The beginning of mankind, had men for centuries, with little knowledge, and little history from which to draw examples.

That concept continues thousands of years later, every time a new babe is naturally born.
They learn bit by bit, try things, that might work or fail.

It is a matter of learning, and experiencing, and as time passes, history passes, and individuals have examples from history, of others failures, to decide if they want to repeat an others failures or use an others example of success.

^ That works in everyday life, in this world, for work, cooking, driving, repairing things, etc.
^ It also works in spiritual life.

An individual can criticize an others failures, from historical things in everyday life, AND historical things in behaviors regarding religious beliefs and actions.

Anyone can find the Right and Wrong in what was an ERROR....after the Fact...

Taking advantage of History to Not repeat errors, that had a dastardly outcome, is key.
And common sense.

One thing that IS constant, is the Lord God.
Who He is, what He desires and WHY.

What is also constant, is mankinds Natural instinct. Keep his life at all costs, greed, stinginess, power, authority, fame, riches, comfort, control....

When a majority want ^ that, and the majority are trying to achieve ^ that, then who exactly are they going to control, take from?

Just saying, naturally born people, have natural instincts....
Spiritually born people, have adopted a whole different paradigm.

There is no billieted point list in Scripture.
Scripture covers a multitude of exampled behaviors and exampled results.

Everyone is an individual. And every individual has to freely decide and choose where they want to fit in, according to what applies to them.

Glory to God,
Taken

Lets say you had a child that was walking alone in the woods and came to a fork in the road and one way meant assured destruction (child eating monkeys or something) and the other meant safety. Lets say you knew which road was safe, which way was destruction and you could communicate that to the child, would you? Or would you do like god and tell hundreds of people through a letter that was unclear and had them tell the child which way to go. So the child has free will to decide which way to go and has to make this decision based on conflicting information from people that claim to know.

 

[Vince]

Oh so you believe in a burning Hell?

No, I am just repeating what some Christians believe. I have no way to determine if a god exists let alone what he would be like or do.

 

[Vince]

Jesus was speaking to Jews. They knew that in order to seek attonement for sin there had to be repentance and a sacrifical offering, so it would be understood that repentance was also there.

You kind of prove my point. There are Christians out there that would disagree with your interpretation. I guess I just need to wait until you Christians figure this out. Let me know.

 

[Willie T]

Lets say you had a child that was walking alone in the woods and came to a fork in the road and one way meant assured destruction (child eating monkeys or something) and the other meant safety. Lets say you knew which road was safe, which way was destruction and you could communicate that to the child, would you? Or would you do like god and tell hundreds of people through a letter that was unclear and had them tell the child which way to go. So the child has free will to decide which way to go and has to make this decision based on conflicting information from people that claim to know.

Would you listen to what any number of Politicians say about our country, or would you be wise enough to read the readily accessible words of the Constitution for yourself?

 

[Vince]

Anybody can say they are anything. If a person picks up a violin and makes terrible noises with it....will you give up on music?

Maybe if thousands of different teachers are telling me different techniques to be able to play it.

 

[Vince]

When I was a child, I thought dogs were males, and cats were females of the same species. So, what? I used to work at a Mental hospital... you could hardly keep track of which patient thought they were, what.

You gonna base your destiny on what others think, or are you going to begin thinking for yourself, and having the guts to go to your grave trusting in THAT that belief? In a church I once attended, they spelled FAITH, R-I-S-K.

I did this for 18 years. The real issue behind why Christians disagree is that the bible is unclear and contradictory.

 

[Willie T]

I did this for 18 years. The real issue behind why Christians disagree is that the bible is unclear and contradictory.

Come on, you are smarter than that, You and I both know that tired old claim of the Bible being contradictory has been debunked decades ago.

 

[Vince]

Would you listen to what any number of Politicians say about our country, or would you be wise enough to read the readily accessible words of the Constitution for yourself?

Not my point of the story. The child in the story cannot understand the letter the others have because he is not spiritual enough to discern it, right? At least this is what I was told about ten minutes ago with supporting scripture. How is a non believer who cannot read and understand the bible because they are not spiritually discerning know what it means then if Christians who are spiritual readers don't know?

 

[Vince]

Come on, you are smarter than that, You and I both know that tired old claim of the Bible being contradictory has been debunked decades ago.

Debunked by Christians right? There are passages in the bible that are clearly contradictory. Christians have to write pages and pages of explanations to try and explain them when the simple explanation is that they are contradictory.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

That is what you say. Other Christians say different. It seems that Christians cannot even agree on what god is like.

Because people aren't clones.
Do you know another group that agrees on every detail? I don't.