The Proof of Salvation

[brakelite]

God cannot die. He is eternal.

The Father, who is Spirit, is immortal, and cannot die. The Son however, who life was given Him, although the same immortal life as is possessed by the Father, can die, as He himself testified...
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
the life that was/is in Christ is same life as His Father's...like Father like Son.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

The gospel of John especially is full of quotes such as these which reveal that the Son has the Father's life, and has the authority to confer tha life on anyone who believes...

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

The above are just the smallest of sampling that repeats the same idea...

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


No where though is it suggested that Jesus, the Son of God, didn't die...lay down His life...the same life granted Him of the Father and that now resurrected, is willing to grant it to those who believe. What sacrifice was there from either the Father's or the Son's perspective, if Jesus didn't really die? What was the fuss in Gethsemane that Jesus sweat great drops of blood and nearly died just thinking about it? Was it not separation from His Father...the same father He had known from eternity? How can separation from the only source of life, not result in death?

 

[brakelite]

This thread is not about the SDA. If you want to discuss that start a new thread.

So why do you keep bringing it up? Every replay I have made you have responded with a sarcastic comment regarding my church, EGW, or SDA doctrine...let us talk about them by all means, go hard, but I agree, not here. But I don't think you are game for that.

 

[CoreIssue]

The Father, who is Spirit, is immortal, and cannot die. The Son however, who life was given Him, although the same immortal life as is possessed by the Father, can die, as He himself testified...
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
the life that was/is in Christ is same life as His Father's...like Father like Son.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

The gospel of John especially is full of quotes such as these which reveal that the Son has the Father's life, and has the authority to confer tha life on anyone who believes...

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

The above are just the smallest of sampling that repeats the same idea...

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


No where though is it suggested that Jesus, the Son of God, didn't die...lay down His life...the same life granted Him of the Father and that now resurrected, is willing to grant it to those who believe. What sacrifice was there from either the Father's or the Son's perspective, if Jesus didn't really die? What was the fuss in Gethsemane that Jesus sweat great drops of blood and nearly died just thinking about it? Was it not separation from His Father...the same father He had known from eternity? How can separation from the only source of life, not result in death?

The man Jesus is the son of God. His spirit the second person of the Trinity and is a son of no one.

The man Jesus died on the cross, not the second person of the Trinity.

The Bible is clear only a man could die to pay for the sins of mankind brought on by the man Adam.

Obviously you have no understanding of the dual nature of Christ.

 

[CoreIssue]

So why do you keep bringing it up? Every replay I have made you have responded with a sarcastic comment regarding my church, EGW, or SDA doctrine...let us talk about them by all means, go hard, but I agree, not here. But I don't think you are game for that.

Just pointing out for all where your claims and criticisms of others are coming from.

 

[brakelite]

I like that. If you were a missionary to Trinitarian natives, they'd get that pot boiling!

Where he comes from he would be buried alive and roasted underground.

 

[brakelite]

Just pointing out for all where your claims and criticisms of others are coming from.

I've given Biblical references which you haven't debated...just made pot shots at my church. A tactic born of a man with no other answers.

 

[CoreIssue]

I've given Biblical references which you haven't debated...just made pot shots at my church. A tactic born of a man with no other answers.

You gave Bible verses that you applied false meaning to.

 

[brakelite]

The man Jesus is the son of God. His spirit the second person of the Trinity and is a son of no one.

Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

The man Jesus died on the cross, not the second person of the Trinity.

acrifice would be sufficient...not even an angel. Like Abraham said to Isaac...God shall provide a sacrifice...The whole person of Jesus died. When He met Mary Jesus said, "I have not yet ascended to MY Father"...so no "spirit" of Jesus returned to God.

The Bible is clear only a man could die to pay for the sins of mankind brought on by the man Adam.

See above.

 

[brakelite]

You gave Bible verses that you applied false meaning to.

Okay, so explain how else we are to interpret "God who only hath immortality".

 

[Waiting on him]

The Father, who is Spirit, is immortal, and cannot die. The Son however, who life was given Him, although the same immortal life as is possessed by the Father, can die, as He himself testified...
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
the life that was/is in Christ is same life as His Father's...like Father like Son.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

The gospel of John especially is full of quotes such as these which reveal that the Son has the Father's life, and has the authority to confer tha life on anyone who believes...

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

The above are just the smallest of sampling that repeats the same idea...

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


No where though is it suggested that Jesus, the Son of God, didn't die...lay down His life...the same life granted Him of the Father and that now resurrected, is willing to grant it to those who believe. What sacrifice was there from either the Father's or the Son's perspective, if Jesus didn't really die? What was the fuss in Gethsemane that Jesus sweat great drops of blood and nearly died just thinking about it? Was it not separation from His Father...the same father He had known from eternity? How can separation from the only source of life, not result in death?

IMO The fuss in the garden was jesus acknowledging to the father that the body(flesh) couldn’t make the hill, it was a climb only the Spirit could accomplish.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well seems Christ though different

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

as for pilate

Joh 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

 

[CoreIssue]

Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

God.

acrifice would be sufficient...not even an angel. Like Abraham said to Isaac...God shall provide a sacrifice...The whole person of Jesus died. When He met Mary Jesus said, "I have not yet ascended to MY Father"...so no "spirit" of Jesus returned to God.

The second person of the Trinity, the Word, descended from heaven to incarnate and after the resurrection ascended. Nowhere does it say the spirit of Christ died. Spirits do not die.

 

[CoreIssue]

Okay, so explain how else we are to interpret "God who only hath immortality".

Only God has neither beginning or end.

Humans have a beginning and end to their earthly flesh. A beginning to their spirits but not an end.

Angels have a beginning but no end.

It is addressed to humans in this earthly life, not eternity.

 

[brakelite]

Spirits do not die.

On whose authority?

• Satan's declaration in the garden, "thou shalt not surely die",
• or core issue's declaration "spirits do not die",
• or Pauls declaration "only God hath immortality"?

 

[brakelite]

It is addressed to humans in this earthly life, not eternity.

So if anyone was eternal right, it would have been Adam and Eve. So why the tree of life, which was forbidden them in case they ate of it? And what do you think would have been the consequence of any sinner eating of the tree of life?

 

[mjrhealth]

So if anyone was eternal right, it would have been Adam and Eve. So why the tree of life, which was forbidden them in case they ate of it? And what do you think would have been the consequence of any sinner eating of the tree of life?

But than Christ came

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day

Joh_17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

because many will not taste death

Luk_9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.\

and many wont because

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

but many would rather be judged by there works. Which is the second death

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[brakelite]

We are all going to be judged by our works. It is our works that identify to whom we belong...Christ or Satan.
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If you repeatedly bring up a man's church and then he answers, it is ridiculous to then say this is not the place to talk about it.

Its like saying: I'm going to repeatedly poke you with this stick, then when the man opens his mouth to protest, you say, this is not the place to protest.

What childishness is this?

 

[tzcho2]

Quoted correctly. Word not word. Word meaning logos, God.

The flesh of Christ is not God nor did the flesh exist before the incarnation.

I would think God cou

If you repeatedly bring up a man's church and then he answers, it is ridiculous to then say this is not the place to talk about it.

Its like saying: I'm going to repeatedly poke you with this stick, then when the man opens his mouth to protest, you say, this is not the place to protest.

What childishness is this?

The problem is SDA have teachings & interpretations of scripture-- that are outside of what the Bible states , that came from Ellen White so there's the problem.

 

[bbyrd009]

The whole person of Jesus died. When He met Mary Jesus said, "I have not yet ascended to MY Father"...so no "spirit" of Jesus returned to God.

a good but difficult point imo, further reflected in Joseph of Aramithea's inability to collect Jesus' "body." He got a "carcass" instead!