When to look for the rapture of the church

[Taken]

Okay

Yet you ignore the below

There is much discussed in Scripture about the end days. Do you require the entire Bible to be recited?

Look at what the disciples were asking.
And remember the disciples were JEWS.

Matt 24
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Thereafter Jesus gives brief summary of what shall be.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

When?After what? [/QUOTE]

Tribulation of "those days".

Why are any JEWS, the elect, going to suffer ANY tribulation, and to WHAT extent?

Remember, JEWS the elect;
categories...that pertain exclusively to the JEWS...

Division has been happening from the Beginning...(not only Jews & Gentiles),
But also JEWS among JEWS dividing)

Categories;
Jews....who have always believed IN God.
Jews....who believed in God and deserted God for pagan gods.
Jews....who believed in God, and being introduced to Jesus Christ their Messiah.
Jews...who (in Jesus' day accepting of Christ Jesus)
Jews...after the Jewish disciples dying off, stopped believing, teaching, preaching Jesus is their Messiah.

Matt 24...WHO is asking WHAT about WHOM?
WHO.....is Jewish believers in God, in Christ.
WHAT....signs of ends days
WHOM...for any JEW...

(What about Gentiles?
WHO were the disciples being GROOMED, to go teach? JEWS]

What the Disciples were asking, was about What will become of the JEWS ... you know ...the people the disciples will be teaching.

Tribulation is about Punitative Days.

Punishment, for every single person (JEW) according to where each stands in belief, within the "group".

(Gentiles are not excluded. It is a matter of applying scripture to whom specifically it applies. Jesus came to seek the Lost Jews...
The twelve disciples were to carry on Jesus' ministry, seeking the Lost Jews).

The Least punitive tribulation will apply TO;
Jews......WHO.......
Have remained faithful to God...but have not yet come into Belief, that Jesus is their Christ Messiah.....<--- IF that does not happen for a Jew, before the ends of Days....
During the Tribulation beginning, is when they begin accepting Jesus as their Christ Messiah....
Any man During the Tribulation, who turns to belief in God....in God and Christ....that man suffering any portion of the Tribulation ends....
He becomes both...saved unto God ...and bodily killed.

Matt 24 is Jesus giving his disciples a brief summary of what shall happen.

Matt 24:29 parallels with Rev 6:12

Rev 6:
[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Those days tribulation, applies to Jews, who have kept belief/Faith in God, and "they" have come to belief in Christ Jesus. And more Jews will also come into belief, as the tribulation increases.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[n2thelight]

There is much discussed in Scripture about the end days. Do you require the entire Bible to be recited?

Look at what the disciples were asking.
And remember the disciples were JEWS.

Matt 24
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Thereafter Jesus gives brief summary of what shall be.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

When?After what?

Tribulation of "those days".

Why are any JEWS, the elect, going to suffer ANY tribulation, and to WHAT extent?

Remember, JEWS the elect;
categories...that pertain exclusively to the JEWS...

Division has been happening from the Beginning...(not only Jews & Gentiles),
But also JEWS among JEWS dividing)

Categories;
Jews....who have always believed IN God.
Jews....who believed in God and deserted God for pagan gods.
Jews....who believed in God, and being introduced to Jesus Christ their Messiah.
Jews...who (in Jesus' day accepting of Christ Jesus)
Jews...after the Jewish disciples dying off, stopped believing, teaching, preaching Jesus is their Messiah.

Matt 24...WHO is asking WHAT about WHOM?
WHO.....is Jewish believers in God, in Christ.
WHAT....signs of ends days
WHOM...for any JEW...

(What about Gentiles?
WHO were the disciples being GROOMED, to go teach? JEWS]

What the Disciples were asking, was about What will become of the JEWS ... you know ...the people the disciples will be teaching.

Tribulation is about Punitative Days.

Punishment, for every single person (JEW) according to where each stands in belief, within the "group".

(Gentiles are not excluded. It is a matter of applying scripture to whom specifically it applies. Jesus came to seek the Lost Jews...
The twelve disciples were to carry on Jesus' ministry, seeking the Lost Jews).

The Least punitive tribulation will apply TO;
Jews......WHO.......
Have remained faithful to God...but have not yet come into Belief, that Jesus is their Christ Messiah.....<--- IF that does not happen for a Jew, before the ends of Days....
During the Tribulation beginning, is when they begin accepting Jesus as their Christ Messiah....
Any man During the Tribulation, who turns to belief in God....in God and Christ....that man suffering any portion of the Tribulation ends....
He becomes both...saved unto God ...and bodily killed.

Matt 24 is Jesus giving his disciples a brief summary of what shall happen.

Matt 24:29 parallels with Rev 6:12

Rev 6:
[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Those days tribulation, applies to Jews, who have kept belief/Faith in God, and "they" have come to belief in Christ Jesus. And more Jews will also come into belief, as the tribulation increases.

Glory to God,
Taken[/QUOTE]

Knew you would say that.But hold up,you either believe or you don't,do you see your contradiction ?

"Those days tribulation, applies to Jews, who have kept belief/Faith in God, and "they" have come to belief in Christ Jesus."

How can one keep and then come to know?Be it Jew or Gentile one either know's or don't.

Let's do this ,I'm a babe coming to Christ,can you tell me what's written to Jew's and what's written to me?If I'm a Jew who believes upon Christ which part I'm I at

In other words why do you need to know scripture after this rapture?

Do you teach my Father's Word differently between Jew's and Gentiles?If so ,as you are doing,why?

Again I'm a babe coming to Christ,I'm not Jewish,so explain the difference

How do you plant seeds,do you ask a non believer if they are a Jew?

Why are there different rules and what are they?

Who are the Jew's right now?

 

[n2thelight]

Look at what the disciples were asking.
And remember the disciples were JEWS.

No they were not,All of Israel were not Jew's,only the house of Judah and Benjamin

 

[Copperhead]

Holy Spirit you say is taken out of the way,where does He go?

Not sure He needs to go anywhere. Think of it like a guard in football. The guard restrains the opposition from getting into the backfield and sacking the quarterback. The Holy Spirit is like that guard. And like a guard, He may just step aside and allow the man of sin to be revealed. He doesn't have to go anywhere, just step out of the way and quit restraining evil.

 

[Copperhead]

No they were not,All of Israel were not Jew's,only the house of Judah and Benjamin

Interesting thought, but not biblical.

Before the Babylonian exile, many of the northern tribes migrated southward and joined with Judah. There are at least 3 instances of this. 2 Chronicles 11:14-17, 2 Chronicles 15:9, 2 Chronicles 34:9

When the return from the Babylonian Exile occurred, Those that returned with Ezra were called Jews 8 times and Israel 40 times. Those that returned with Nehemiah were called Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

At the Feast of Pentecost Peter cries, "Ye men of Judea" (Acts 2:14), "ye men of Israel..." (Acts 2:22), and "All the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36).

At least 4 tribes are referred to in the NT.... Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and Asher.

The point being, just before the Babylonian exile, the tribes had become commingled to such an extent that they are all considered Jews. They are all also considered Israel. Scripture thoroughly supports that assertion. Only some goofy stuff that has floated around over the last few hundred years put out by biblically illiterate people with an agenda has polluted the pond. And many in the body do not actually take the time to read the history of these things in scripture. We are probably in the most illiterate age of history when it comes to how little believers study the OT. Well, actually... how little many believers actually study the Bible at all. And that is truly sad given that we in this day and age have access online to free Bibles, commentaries, early church writings, and on and on. But instead, folks are more interested in experience and social media.

 

[Taken]

Knew you would say that.But hold up,you either believe or you don't,do you see your contradiction ?

No. What I see is; Every single man on earth, has freewill. And to get a precise picture of what precisely applies to every single person on earth, you would have to precisely INCLUDE every single man on earth view.

I can get the Big picture in general, or what applies to whom....other people.

For me, I know my own beliefs, and that which applies specifically to me, may have Nothing to do with you, or another man.

"Those days tribulation, applies to Jews, who have kept belief/Faith in God, and "they" have come to belief in Christ Jesus."

How can one keep and then come to know?Be it Jew or Gentile one either know's or don't.

Jesus taught;
Believe in the Father God...
AND ALSO
Believe in Him, Jesus the Son...

Open your eyes...
Historical Hebrews believed IN God Almighty.
Where is Jesus in that scenario?
Jesus was not introduced to them.

Enter Jesus on earth. A new teaching to the Jews. Some accepted, some didn't. Jesus' disciples chosen to carry on Jesus' teaching of HIMSELF to the Jews.
Disciples are dead....and WHO today is teaching the Jews...Christ Jesus the Messiah?

Primarily...Jews (who continue practicing their faith); are being taught in the Hebrew historical manner. Believing in God....
and Not believing in Jesus the Christ Messiah.

They do not accept their release from the ancient laws.....Because they do not accept Jesus fulfilled them.

They have kept their faith in God...and have not come into BELIEF in Christ Jesus their Messiah.

They suffer the WRATH of the Lamb.
Because it is the Lamb of God, they deny.

Their wrath is light, BECAUSE, their faith "IS" vested in God Almighty.

But yet you should know...once the knowledge is revealed; it must be accepted; FOR the Salvation (offered by the Lamb of God) to be Given.

Let's do this ,I'm a babe coming to Christ,can you tell me what's written to Jew's and what's written to me?

First you are implying you are NOT a Jew.
Thus, as a babe, I would presume you know nothing ABOUT God, ABOUT Jesus, and have simply heard the terms, God, Jesus, Christ, but know not what they mean.
Thus, I would begin at the beginning, so you would grasp the understanding of the "terms" you have heard.

Jews were fully familiar with God and their Messiah. But not accepting that Jesus...this nobody from Nazareth, a little nothing place of laborers. Nothing magnificent about Jesus or where He came from.
( Compare that to your people being persecuted and downtrodden for centuries and some guy from the ghetto coming to town to tell you, he's the one you have been waiting for to save your people from the whole world who has been against you and your people. A guy with no money, no clout, no position, viruallly unknown.
What would you think? Whoopie? Wow, finally....God has given us a savior? )

If I'm a Jew who believes upon Christ which part I'm I at

Historically 2,000 + years ago, Some Jews came into belief in Jesus, and came to know He is the Christ.

But that drifted away. Particularly after the chosen disciples deaths. Jews in Christ, faced not only persecution from Gentiles, but also persecution from Jews who rejected Jesus. And over a course of a short time, the Jews were pretty much congregated together, back UNDER the Law; believing in God, but not Jesus their Christ Messiah.

Today, there a some Jews, who practice their Jewish customs and traditions, and ALSO have committed themselves to belief and conversion IN Christ Jesus...calling themselves; "christians" ? No.
Messianic Jews.

In other words why do you need to know scripture after this rapture?

Why does anyone need to know any knowledge?

If you read, and learn, and study, and come to an understanding of that which is Good for you...and other choices of which would be Detrimental to you....What would you want for your family, loved ones, fellow men...?
That they also know the Good offered them...
Or they be ignorant and subject to horrific consequences ?

Do you teach my Father's Word differently between Jew's and Gentiles?If so ,as you are doing,why?

The commonality among men is they are all the same KIND of terrestrial beings, called men.

They didn't BEGIN "divided". They BECAME "divided". <--- you know, that freewill thingy.

The "DIVISION"...(ancient history) was precisely...ABOUT GOD.

Men Believing in God and men Rejecting God....and that is where God Himself LABELED the Division...
Hebrews...the Believer
Gentiles....the UN-Believers

And as you follow the course of history...
Men themselves, Again that freewill thingy..
Some men labeled Hebrews stopped believing
IN God.
And
Some men labeled Gentiles started believing
IN God.

However the LABELS of Hebrew and Gentile remained.

Then forward to the Labels...12 Tribes and Gentiles..also divided

Then forward to the Tribes splitting apart...
tribe of Benjamin & Judah (who were called Jews)

Dissolving of the tribes occupying their own lands....Tribal peoples scattered, all adopting the name; JEWS

Some JEWS keeping belief in God...some not.

What was in the beginning, continues...
A DIVISION of MEN...believing IN GOD, and some NOT.

Then the introduction of the HEBREW/JEWISH Gods Christ Messiah.

And that freewill thingy all men have...
Accepting God, rejecting God....was already established among the Hebrews/Jews....and Gentiles mostly rejecting, but not exclusively....

And now Jesus introduced....it begins all over again...the freewill thingy...individual men deciding what they will accept or reject.

Again I'm a babe coming to Christ,I'm not Jewish,so explain the difference

You just asked and were answered.
But further, why are you coming to Christ?
Who is He? And what do you know about Him?

How do you plant seeds,

Speaking the Word of God.

do you ask a non believer if they are a Jew?

A non-believer in who? God or God and Christ?
And it depends on the context of the conversation.

Why are there different rules and what are they?

The "rules" are the same. When knowledge is given you, consider how that knowledge applies to you, verify it with scirpture.

Who are the Jew's right now?

Same as always...Bloodline descent. Also one who has adopted, accepts, and practices the Jewish religion.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

Holy Spirit you say is taken out of the way,where does He go?

Out of that active role.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I'm not putting any condition on the Holy Spirit. I'm just simply saying who else could it be?

Yes, an angel binds Satan. He restrains Satan by putting him in chains. Takes him totally out of the picture.

Lawlessness is not chained today. It is restricted. To restrict requires omnipresence since lawlessness is in the whole world. It is not a person.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The AC and Satan are lawless but not lawlessness itself.

For the AC to be revealed lawlessness has to be unrestrained.

I see the seven most powerful angels active in revelation during the tribulation period. So none of them can be the restrainer since the restrainer has to be removed for the AC to function.

So I repeat, who else could it be?

Let's try this one on for size: The "restrainer" is the Fear of God. (see Revelation 11:18) Romans 3:18 (a restatement of Psalm 36:1) tells us that evildoers have "no fear of God". When you put "Fear of God" into a search engine, a number of fascinating passages add to the picture: Why is it important to fear God? | Biblword.net

There are still God-fearers here today but one wonders if eventually, there will be few if any God-fearers left on the earth. Jesus wondered whether He would even find faith on the earth when He returned. One of the problems we have in witnessing today is that much of the fear of God is absent from the land. When someone has no fear of God, witnessing to him/her is like offering a parachute when he/she doesn't know that the plane is going to crash into the sea.

 

[historyb]

Come on now,you should be better than that!!!!

huh?

 

[Naomi25]

I'm not putting any condition on the Holy Spirit. I'm just simply saying who else could it be?

This is a valid question and even a reasonable outcome to it. I'm certainly not advocating that it's NOT the Holy Spirit. It most likely is. But the text doesn't say it, and I feel therefore hanging a MUST on it, especially when that must becomes a "the HS has to leave WITH the Church", then the follow on of that logic just becomes a bit of a stretch from a text that says none of that.

Yes, an angel binds Satan. He restrains Satan by putting him in chains. Takes him totally out of the picture.

Lawlessness is not chained today. It is restricted. To restrict requires omnipresence since lawlessness is in the whole world. It is not a person.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The AC and Satan are lawless but not lawlessness itself.

For the AC to be revealed lawlessness has to be unrestrained.

I see the seven most powerful angels active in revelation during the tribulation period. So none of them can be the restrainer since the restrainer has to be removed for the AC to function.

So I repeat, who else could it be?

Well, you know I disagree about the "totally out of the picture" part of your argument above. Rev 20 only tells us that Satan is 'bound from deceiving the nations"...not totally chained out of the picture. Again, you seem to be putting in scripture what you want to see rather than what is there.

I don't think it matters if Satan and the AC are lawless rather than lawlessness 'itself'. The point at hand is this: if God tasks one of his angelic beings with binding or restraining either Satan or the AC, then the angel will be able to. We see that in Rev 20, and so must conclude likewise. All throughout Revelation, both 'good' angelic beings and 'demonic' beings are only ever 'permitted' to do what God allows them to do.

And the idea that the 'restrainer', once removed, cannot be active in the world again, is arguing against your own position. Don't you say that the church has to be removed to get the HS out of this world? But then we clearly see the HS functioning again in what you would call the Tribulation period. The idea that something or someone who has 'released' the spirit of AC cannot funtion again is both logically incorrect and also not found in scripture. If I manage to trap a snake head under my boot, that stops it from escaping. If I lift my boot, it goes free, but my boot, or indeed my whole self doesn't cease to be in the same space as the snake. Indeed, you need to be mightily careful! My point being...let's say that the restrainer IS the HS, he's God. Why cannot he release the spirit of AC and remain? There is nothing in scripture saying he cannot? The same goes with the restrainer being an angelic being. In fact, the idea of setting something free has to equal the 'releaser vanishing from the same space' is not found anywhere. Is it?

 

[CoreIssue]

Let's try this one on for size: The "restrainer" is the Fear of God. (see Revelation 11:18) Romans 3:18 (a restatement of Psalm 36:1) tells us that evildoers have "no fear of God". When you put "Fear of God" into a search engine, a number of fascinating passages add to the picture: Why is it important to fear God? | Biblword.net

There are still God-fearers here today but one wonders if eventually, there will be few if any God-fearers left on the earth. Jesus wondered whether He would even find faith on the earth when He returned. One of the problems we have in witnessing today is that much of the fear of God is absent from the land. When someone has no fear of God, witnessing to him/her is like offering a parachute when he/she doesn't know that the plane is going to crash into the sea.

The restrainer is a he, meaning a personage. Fear is not a he.

I thought about this many times over the decades. Absolutely no other personage can do the job that is actually active the world.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The restrainer is a he, meaning a personage. Fear is not a he.

I thought about this many times over the decades. Absolutely no other personage can do the job that is actually active the world.

The fear of the Lord is one aspect of the Holy Spirit (see Isaiah 11:2). Since the Bible often uses anthropomorphisms ("Wisdom" is referred to as "she"), the fear of the Lord could be the Restrainer and be referred to as "He".

 

[CoreIssue]

This is a valid question and even a reasonable outcome to it. I'm certainly not advocating that it's NOT the Holy Spirit. It most likely is. But the text doesn't say it, and I feel therefore hanging a MUST on it, especially when that must becomes a "the HS has to leave WITH the Church", then the follow on of that logic just becomes a bit of a stretch from a text that says none of that.


Well, you know I disagree about the "totally out of the picture" part of your argument above. Rev 20 only tells us that Satan is 'bound from deceiving the nations"...not totally chained out of the picture. Again, you seem to be putting in scripture what you want to see rather than what is there.

I don't think it matters if Satan and the AC are lawless rather than lawlessness 'itself'. The point at hand is this: if God tasks one of his angelic beings with binding or restraining either Satan or the AC, then the angel will be able to. We see that in Rev 20, and so must conclude likewise. All throughout Revelation, both 'good' angelic beings and 'demonic' beings are only ever 'permitted' to do what God allows them to do.

And the idea that the 'restrainer', once removed, cannot be active in the world again, is arguing against your own position. Don't you say that the church has to be removed to get the HS out of this world? But then we clearly see the HS functioning again in what you would call the Tribulation period. The idea that something or someone who has 'released' the spirit of AC cannot funtion again is both logically incorrect and also not found in scripture. If I manage to trap a snake head under my boot, that stops it from escaping. If I lift my boot, it goes free, but my boot, or indeed my whole self doesn't cease to be in the same space as the snake. Indeed, you need to be mightily careful! My point being...let's say that the restrainer IS the HS, he's God. Why cannot he release the spirit of AC and remain? There is nothing in scripture saying he cannot? The same goes with the restrainer being an angelic being. In fact, the idea of setting something free has to equal the 'releaser vanishing from the same space' is not found anywhere. Is it?

That does not change the fact only the Holy Spirit is omnipresent to restrain lawlessness.

You can try to inject Angels all you want but that does not change the fact they are not Omni present.

That is like arguing fallen Angels can have children when they cannot.

Sure, God can do anything he wishes but you're talking about altering an angel into something it is not, but he does not do.

Where do you see the Holy Spirit in the Tribulation Period? And don't say indwelling people because you cannot show a single reference to the church or born again at the end of the seven churches on. Nor the word Christian.

And please, stop the demands for negative proof claims. They don't fly.
Nor does your theories prove anything.

What next? God has foreknowledge using some ancient time travel machine?

As for why this and that don't happen that's the way God wants it, so live with it.

You keep arguing for amillennialism or something similar. Completely nonbiblical.

 

[CoreIssue]

The fear of the Lord is one aspect of the Holy Spirit (see Isaiah 11:2). Since the Bible often uses anthropomorphisms ("Wisdom" is referred to as "she"), the fear of the Lord could be the Restrainer and be referred to as "He".

The fear the Lord is never called he.

 

[Taken]

No they were not,All of Israel were not Jew's,only the house of Judah and Benjamin

Already established Jews were from the tribe of Judah /Benjamin.

 

[CoreIssue]

Already established Jews were from the tribe of Judah /Benjamin.

But prophetically the staffs of Judah and Israel will be rejoined/reunited.

The new covenant will be with the houses of Judah and Israel. Two houses joined as one nation.

Revelation, among others, makes clear it is the 12 tribes of Israel no longer divided.

 

[Naomi25]

That does not change the fact only the Holy Spirit is omnipresent to restrain lawlessness.

You can try to inject Angels all you want but that does not change the fact they are not Omni present.

How does the necessity of Omnipresence factor into this? The passage speaks of the restrainer lifting his hand so that "the lawless one" may come, but that the 'mystery of lawlessness is already present'. So...the restrainer is not presently restraining all lawlessness. And he will not, at some point in time lift that restraint so that all lawlessness will tumble forth and that will give birth to the AC. Instead the passage says that the direct purpose of the restrainer is to restrain the 'man of sin', and then release him at the pre-ordained time. That does not need omnipresence...not for a single man at a single point in time.

That is like arguing fallen Angels can have children when they cannot.

So...you're trying to point out Angels can't do, what they can't do? Fair enough, but like I said before, for the particular task at hand, they don't need to be God. The text doesn't demand it, and the task doesn't either. It seems to be you putting that condition upon it.

Sure, God can do anything he wishes but you're talking about altering an angel into something it is not, but he does not do.

Ah, no I'm not. At all. I'd be doing that if what the text demanded was only able to be done by God alone. The text doesn't demand that, and neither does the task. Revealing one particular individual at one particular time. The text outright states that ALL lawlessness is already moving throughout the world, so the restrainer, whoever it is, is not, in point of fact, holding it back. It's only 'restraining' (hence the name) the coming forth of the AC, using this lawlessness as a platform.

Where do you see the Holy Spirit in the Tribulation Period? And don't say indwelling people because you cannot show a single reference to the church or born again at the end of the seven churches on. Nor the word Christian.

Seriously? You cannot be that blind. Do people come to Christ during the Tribulation? Even putting aside my read on Revelation and End times, your own system demands the presence of the Holy Spirit. Unless the means of salvation change completely (and there is not one bible verse that you can show that proves so), then the Spirit must come and do it's work within a person. Without the Spirit regeneration will not happen, the work of replacing an old heart with a new one.
Also, when we read in Revelation that people 'gave glory to God', or 'persevered through trial' or 'praised his name during suffering'....all those things are done by the inworking of the Holy Spirit.
I could go on and on about how necessary the Spirit is for Christian life, but you know this, you live it now. What I'd like to know...what I'd like to see, is what makes you think the bible gives any reason to think people coming to God at the end, will be any different? Where does it say that a time will come where people will not need Christ? If they don't need Christ then how do they become regenerated? How do they walk every day putting sin to death and embracing their new heart? How do they accept that the Spirit plays an essential part in our prayer life, turning our fuddling, inept prayers into groans so deep and heartfelt that it becomes an insense before God? Every single day of a Christians life is lived on the Spirit. And I don't care how hard you attempt to argue that "the church" doesn't show up in Revelation, there are plenty of Saints, and there is absolutely no way you can get around the fact that "Saint" in the NT is the same as Christian.

And please, stop the demands for negative proof claims. They don't fly.
Nor does your theories prove anything.

I wasn't aware it was. But I'd be happy to settle for proof of any kind. My theories may not proove anything, but...I'm not trying to proove anything. I'm just pointing out that you are trying to proove something from silence. It's a bit like trying to prove that the bible INSISTS on the fact that because we're going to meet the Lord in the air, that MUST mean we're all going to grow wings at the Rapture. Makes sense, right? We'll be flying. How can we flying up in the air without wings? Sure....perhaps it makes sense...but it doesn't SAY it anywhere. Like this...it doesn't SAY anywhere that the restrainer is the HS, so insisting it HAS to be is pushing onto scripture what is just not there. Thats not "a theory", that's a fact.

What next? God has foreknowledge using some ancient time travel machine?

As for why this and that don't happen that's the way God wants it, so live with it.

You keep arguing for amillennialism or something similar. Completely nonbiblical.

And yet, for all your ridicule, you have yet to step up to the plate and 1: biblically address amillennialism, rather than just deride it. And 2: actually biblically support your own view. Everyone has an opinion. The only thing I care about is what the bible says. I have repeatedly said to you that I am open to discussion on the topic, even open to considering other things....if a good, biblical attempt is made to show why you really, honestly think the bible is saying that, not this. As it is, all you ever seem to do, is toss criticism and opinions, and that holds no weight.

 

[CoreIssue]

="Naomi25, post: 518182, member: 7237"]

How does the necessity of Omnipresence factor into this? The passage speaks of the restrainer lifting his hand so that "the lawless one" may come, but that the 'mystery of lawlessness is already present'. So...the restrainer is not presently restraining all lawlessness. And he will not, at some point in time lift that restraint so that all lawlessness will tumble forth and that will give birth to the AC. Instead the passage says that the direct purpose of the restrainer is to restrain the 'man of sin', and then release him at the pre-ordained time. That does not need omnipresence...not for a single man at a single point in time.

Removed, not hand lifted.

The lawless one is not lawlesness.

So...you're trying to point out Angels can't do, what they can't do? Fair enough, but like I said before, for the particular task at hand, they don't need to be God. The text doesn't demand it, and the task doesn't either. It seems to be you putting that condition upon it.

It does not deny it.

The task does require it.

Ah, no I'm not. At all. I'd be doing that if what the text demanded was only able to be done by God alone. The text doesn't demand that, and neither does the task. Revealing one particular individual at one particular time. The text outright states that ALL lawlessness is already moving throughout the world, so the restrainer, whoever it is, is not, in point of fact, holding it back. It's only 'restraining' (hence the name) the coming forth of the AC, using this lawlessness as a platform.

Seriously? You cannot be that blind. Do people come to Christ during the Tribulation? Even putting aside my read on Revelation and End times, your own system demands the presence of the Holy Spirit. Unless the means of salvation change completely (and there is not one bible verse that you can show that proves so), then the Spirit must come and do it's work within a person. Without the Spirit regeneration will not happen, the work of replacing an old heart with a new one.

Was anyone born again in the OT in the flesh? No.

Also, when we read in Revelation that people 'gave glory to God', or 'persevered through trial' or 'praised his name during suffering'....all those things are done by the inworking of the Holy Spirit.

Spirits in heaven will give glory.

kept from trial, not through it... Rapture.

I could go on and on about how necessary the Spirit is for Christian life, but you know this, you live it now. What I'd like to know...what I'd like to see, is what makes you think the bible gives any reason to think people coming to God at the end, will be any different? Where does it say that a time will come where people will not need Christ? If they don't need Christ then how do they become regenerated? How do they walk every day putting sin to death and embracing their new heart? How do they accept that the Spirit plays an essential part in our prayer life, turning our fuddling, inept prayers into groans so deep and heartfelt that it becomes an insense before God? Every single day of a Christians life is lived on the Spirit. And I don't care how hard you attempt to argue that "the church" doesn't show up in Revelation, there are plenty of Saints, and there is absolutely no way you can get around the fact that "Saint" in the NT is the same as Christian.

No Church in Trib.

I wasn't aware it was. But I'd be happy to settle for proof of any kind. My theories may not proove anything, but...I'm not trying to proove anything. I'm just pointing out that you are trying to proove something from silence. It's a bit like trying to prove that the bible INSISTS on the fact that because we're going to meet the Lord in the air, that MUST mean we're all going to grow wings at the Rapture. Makes sense, right? We'll be flying. How can we flying up in the air without wings? Sure....perhaps it makes sense...but it doesn't SAY it anywhere. Like this...it doesn't SAY anywhere that the restrainer is the HS, so insisting it HAS to be is pushing onto scripture what is just not there. Thats not "a theory", that's a fact.

You are tring to deny the Rapture.


And yet, for all your ridicule, you have yet to step up to the plate and 1: biblically address amillennialism, rather than just deride it. And 2: actually biblically support your own view. Everyone has an opinion. The only thing I care about is what the bible says. I have repeatedly said to you that I am open to discussion on the topic, even open to considering other things....if a good, biblical attempt is made to show why you really, honestly think the bible is saying that, not this. As it is, all you ever seem to do, is toss criticism and opinions, and that holds no weight.[/QUOTE]

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The fear the Lord is never called he.

Well, it could be a first. But, overall, I agree that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. It is important to note that before the Flood, in Genesis 6:3, when God says He will not always "contend" with mankind, the Hebrew implies that the sinfulness of mankind was so great that His Spirit would give up, step aside and allow judgment to come on them. Jesus likened that day to the days preceding His return in judgment. But before that day, He will remove the Church because we are not appointed to His wrath. It is important, I think, to distinguish "the wrath of God Almighty and the Lamb" (and the judgment in Revelation is the wrath of God) from the wrath of Satan (and Satan will exercise his wrath on Jewish believers at that time). Satan will be called Abaddon (the Destroyer) in that day. Purified Israel will be reunited with them in the Land, going into the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[CoreIssue]

Well, it could be a first. But, overall, I agree that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. It is important to note that before the Flood, in Genesis 6:3, when God says He will not always "contend" with mankind, the Hebrew implies that the sinfulness of mankind was so great that His Spirit would give up, step aside and allow judgment to come on them. Jesus likened that day to the days preceding His return.

Excellent points. Bibles quite clear to the Gentiles, meaning the church age, will end.

Humanity on the earth will also end.

I think some heavy dispensation because it talks about things coming to an end and being replaced by other things.

That reality snuggled down well with such is amillenialist and atheists.

People in general refuse to acknowledge their time on this earth will come to an end.