Hermeneutics vs. "Herd-meneutics"

[Dave L]

I already know the reference and like I said, the KJV is the only version that mistakenly uses the word Church, others rightfully use 'congregation' or 'assembly'.

it's the same in Greek.

 

[prism]

it's the same in Greek.

The context determines whether it is assembly or Church. Never does the KJV translate the Hebrew word for 'assembly' or 'congregation' as Church, nor does the Septuagint translate any of those OT words into ekklesia.
Besides, you'd need to address Matt 16, where Jesus says "I WILL BUILD my Church". (future tense). If there was a Church in the OT, why did Jesus say He WILL BUILD it?

 

[Dave L]

The context determines whether it is assembly or Church. Never does the KJV translate the Hebrew word for 'assembly' or 'congregation' as Church, nor does the Septuagint translate any of those OT words into ekklesia.
Besides, you'd need to address Matt 16, where Jesus says "I WILL BUILD my Church". (future tense). If there was a Church in the OT, why did Jesus say He WILL BUILD it?

If Stephen calls the congregation the church, that ends the debate for me. Jesus built the church on faith after removing the unbelievers.

 

[Enoch111]

All the Biblical criteria, bar the one above, have been met. In fact, such is their fulfilment to be found in the Papal power that it would be impossible for some of them to be fulfilled again, by any entity, single person or corporate body.

There's one very critical issue which you have not taken into account. Power is given to the Antichrist and Satan by God for ONLY 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1260 days. The pope has been around for over 1600 years!

 

[CoreIssue]

The day of worship ([Zechariah] vv. 16–19)

The primary occupation of heaven will be the worship of the God of heaven. In these verses, the prophet foresees those who are ‘left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem’ (v. 16) joining in the worship. This indicates the conversion of those who once were the enemies of God and his people. Conversion makes God’s enemies his friends and sinners his subjects.
What are we to make of the reference to these converts keeping the Feast of Tabernacles (v. 16)? This feast was designed to commemorate the wandering of the people of Israel for forty years in the wilderness, during which time they were compelled to live in temporary booths or shelters. During the eight days of the feast, the Jews would recall those years by constructing temporary shelters for themselves and staying in them during the feast.
The Feast of Tabernacles was also a harvest festival. James Ayre writes of it, ‘It reminds them that God brought them out of a desert into a glorious land flowing with milk and honey; a land of broad rivers and streams.’2
The mention of this particular feast in relation to eternal glory should therefore be taken to mean that the saints who worship in heaven will be mindful of their wandering before they were saved and of the grace that made them part of God’s great spiritual harvest.
We cannot leave this section without noting that those who are not present to participate in the worship of heaven are under the judgement of God and plagued by him, just like Egypt of old (Exod. 7:14–10:29; 12:29–30).


Ellsworth, R. (2010). Opening Up Zechariah (pp. 135–136). Leominster: Day One Publications.

So, according to you the nations of the earth will be duplicated on the new earth that there will be a temple when the Bible says there is no temple?

 

[prism]

If Stephen calls the congregation the church, that ends the debate for me. Jesus built the church on faith after removing the unbelievers.

Depends which translation you use unless you are a KJV'er Only person...Acts 7:38

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (KJV)

“This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, (NKJV)

This is he who in the assembly in the wilderness (desert) was the go-between for the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and our forefathers, and he received living oracles (words that still live) to be handed down to us. (AMP)

This is the man who was in the assembly in the wilderness, accompanied by the angel that had spoken to him at Mount Sinai and by our fathers, the man who was given living words to pass on to us. (CJB)

This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us. (ESV)

This is the Moses who was with the ·gathering of the Israelites [assembly; congregation] in the ·desert [wilderness]. He was with the angel that spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and he was with our ·ancestors [forefathers; fathers]. He received ·commands from God that give life [life-giving messages; or living oracles], and he gave those commands to us [Ex. 19–24]. (EXB)

He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us. (NIV)

Acts 7:38 (NASB) "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you. (NASB)

I could go on but I hope you finally get my point.

 

[ScottA]

You bet! I reject the Hellenization of scripture interpretation that was developed by Origen and solidified by Augustine and supported by John Calvin. Allegorical interpretation is not God's gig. It is man made. And it led from Origen thru Augustine thru Luther thru Calvin straight to the gas chambers of Auchschwitz.

And it waters down the pure, simple Gospel of Yeshua.

When one uses a allegorical "spiritualizing" approach to scripture, one can pull off a lot of nonsense. This is an extreme example, but quite apropos.... grabbing a scripture that says "Judas hanged himself" and grabbing another that says "Go and do Likewise" and trying to make a doctrine of that.

The only principled hermeneutic approach is that of ... "when the plain sense of scripture makes sense, then seek no other sense lest one end up with nonsense".

But so many want to do the gnostic thing of trying to find the deeper meaning. Origen really botched that up with stuff like the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

The traveler was really Adam
Jerusalem became Paradise
Jericho became the world
The Robbers became hostile influences
Priest and Levite became the Law and the Prophets
The Good Samaritan became Jesus
The Inn became the Church
The 2 Denari became the knowledge of the Father and the Son
The Inn Keeper became the Angels that watch over the Church.

"God is spirit." If you don't like spiritualizing, you don't like God. Have it your way.

But I did not get this from the sources you name, nor do I even know them. I know God.

 

[Dave L]

Depends which translation you use unless you are a KJV'er Only person...Acts 7:38

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (KJV)

“This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, (NKJV)

This is he who in the assembly in the wilderness (desert) was the go-between for the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and our forefathers, and he received living oracles (words that still live) to be handed down to us. (AMP)

This is the man who was in the assembly in the wilderness, accompanied by the angel that had spoken to him at Mount Sinai and by our fathers, the man who was given living words to pass on to us. (CJB)

This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us. (ESV)

This is the Moses who was with the ·gathering of the Israelites [assembly; congregation] in the ·desert [wilderness]. He was with the angel that spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and he was with our ·ancestors [forefathers; fathers]. He received ·commands from God that give life [life-giving messages; or living oracles], and he gave those commands to us [Ex. 19–24]. (EXB)

He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us. (NIV)

Acts 7:38 (NASB) "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you. (NASB)

I could go on but I hope you finally get my point.

The Greek terms = the same

 

[Dave L]

So, according to you the nations of the earth will be duplicated on the new earth that there will be a temple when the Bible says there is no temple?

Scripture mentions only two ages (worlds). This present evil age and the age to come. you must fit prophecy into either of these frameworks. What fits here and what fits there.

 

[CoreIssue]

Scripture mentions only two ages (worlds). This present evil age and the age to come. you must fit prophecy into either of these frameworks. What fits here and what fits there.

 

[Dave L]

View attachment 5600

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this age, so there goes your millennium out the window.

 

[prism]

The Greek terms = the same

So what? English has many words which carry more than one meaning depending on context. Apparently you are just choosing the one translation that fits your RT narrative while ignoring the others. Have a nice day.

 

[Dave L]

So what? English has many words which carry more than one meaning depending on context. Apparently you are just choosing the one translation that fits your RT narrative while ignoring the others. Have a nice day.

Congregation = assembly = church. It's all the same and a major wrench in the works of Dispensationalists false prophecy.

 

[CoreIssue]

Congregation = assembly = church. It's all the same and a major wrench in the works of Dispensationalists false prophecy.

The problem there is your switching languages. Church does not exist in the Hebrew.

And spiritually speaking church is differentiated from Israel in the body of Christ.

 

[Dave L]

The problem there is your switching languages. Church does not exist in the Hebrew.

They mean the same thing. Plus the LXX uses greek to say the same.

 

[CoreIssue]

They mean the same thing. Plus the LXX uses greek to say the same.

So what?

The body of Christ is two heirs, church and Israel. Not church and church.

 

[Copperhead]

"God is spirit." If you don't like spiritualizing, you don't like God. Have it your way.

But I did not get this from the sources you name, nor do I even know them. I know God.

No, God is not Origen or Augustine. Finding spiritualized esoteric meanings buried within a passage using Gnostic philosophical principles is counter to YHVH's standard.

 

[Copperhead]

The problem there is your switching languages. Church does not exist in the Hebrew.

And spiritually speaking church is differentiated from Israel in the body of Christ.

You are on the right track, just coming at it from the wrong direction. Yeshua made it clear.....

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

That is future tense. The Church did not exist until Shavuot (Pentecost) after Yeshua returned to His place with the Father.

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this age, so there goes your millennium out the window.

You keep bringing up this point OUT OF CONTEXT.

1. When did He say it?
2. Why did He say it ?
3. Where did He say it?

Find out the answers to those questions and you will see how foolish you sound.

 

[CoreIssue]

You are on the right track, just coming at it from the wrong direction. Yeshua made it clear.....

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

That is future tense. The Church did not exist until Shavuot (Pentecost) after Yeshua returned to His place with the Father.

The church is built upon Petra not Petros. Petra is Jesus.

And yes it was future tense. I never said differently and most assuredly am not Catholic.

As far as when the church began I believe it was at the resurrection.

Just as Israel began when Jacob became Israel it was not full-fledged instantly. It grew over time.