Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Dave L]

@Dave L

I have a question. When you say:

It happens on the last day after the resurrection of believers.

Then how can your view align with scripture Revelation 20:6 which states that those of the first resurrection will reign for 1000 years? 1000 years is not Eternity last time I checked. So there must be something else that happens after this "Millenial Kingdom"

The first resurrection = the new birth completed in the resurrection/rapture of the Just on the last day. This then followed by the resurrection of the damned.

Two resurrections on the last day

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” (Ephesians 2:1)

“And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses.” (Colossians 2:13)

 

[Dave L]

Unless you understand the reason for the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation, you will not understand the reason for a Pre-tribulation Rapture.

And unless you understand and accept the fact the the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy is yet to be fulfilled, you will not see how all of this is related to the Pre-trib Rapture, and the seven trumpet judgments.

So let's see first if you know what the Tribulation is all about, and then we can go from there.

It is pure fiction without one scripture directly supporting it. Dispensationalism does not originate in the bible, it is a false Jesuit framework people are trained to view scripture through. And it severs scriptures from their original context making them fit the framework. The biblically naive here plenty of scripture, but none of it serves its original design.

 

[Dave L]

That amillennialism will is biblical.

That does not mean negative proof claims and demands.


Versus that deliberately state what you believe or show it must be true.

An example is rapture. The word is not used in the Bible. But the Greek word that means snatched away is.

Versus must be in context. As with tereo ek. Only one place in the Bible says it occurs on the whole earth. So referencing events where it only occurs in a specific limited area is not a proof against revelation 3:10.

 

[Dave L]

That amillennialism will is biblical.

That does not mean negative proof claims and demands.


Versus that deliberately state what you believe or show it must be true.

An example is rapture. The word is not used in the Bible. But the Greek word that means snatched away is.

Versus must be in context. As with tereo ek. Only one place in the Bible says it occurs on the whole earth. So referencing events where it only occurs in a specific limited area is not a proof against revelation 3:10.

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

 

[bbyrd009]

I very hesitantly approach you bbyrd, hoping we do not repeat past mistakes. But, I just wanted to ask you...what DO you see happening in the future? You don't believe in the rapture, or Christ's return. Do you see an end to things at all? How do you see such things?

I honestly, after lots of work, almost completely give no thought to them at all, but let me reiterate that I totally believe in Scriptural rapture, Bible Search: rapture, I just don't equate it with harpazo, mostly bc I have experienced being snatched away, as no doubt you have also.

But might Jesus literally appear in the clouds to bodily remove some "us" from the earth at some point? I certainly don't know ok, but "every eye will see Him" and "the kingdom does not come by observation" suggest a diff interp to me

 

[bbyrd009]

, or Christ's return.

Return to Me, and I will return to you

 

[friend of]

One MUST understand that,SATAN himself,along with his angels are coming to this earth,it's not a maybe,it's a fact.

I thought they were already here

 

[friend of]

The first resurrection = the new birth completed in the resurrection/rapture of the Just on the last day. This then followed by the resurrection of the damned.

After 1000 years. The second ressurectuon does not follow immediately like you are suggesting. So if you're saying that this point marks the final resurrection before all things are made new, then why does the passage indicate a fixed amount of time after? "1000 years" is not symbolic for Eternity.

As an ammilleniaist you probably deny the pretrib notion of a Millennial kingdom, but Rev 20:6 says that's what will happen.

 

[Dave L]

After 1000 years. The second ressurectuon does not follow immediately like you are suggesting. So if you're saying that this point marks the final resurrection before all things are made new, then why does the passage indicate a fixed amount of time after? "1000 years" is not symbolic for Eternity.

As an ammilleniaist you probably deny the pretrib notion of a Millennial kingdom, but Rev 20:6 says that's what will happen.

Revelation uses symbols. The 1000 years is not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed.

 

[CoreIssue]

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

Not proof.

 

[Dave L]

Not proof.

Find one passage in Jesus' words that depict a physical kingdom. Are you born again? Jesus says only the born again can see the kingdom.

 

[CoreIssue]

Find one passage in Jesus' words that depict a physical kingdom. Are you born again? Jesus says only the born again can see it.

Negative proof claim.

 

[Helen]

< snip> Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.

Thank you...excellent post!

Not many people have grasped that the "mansion" Jesus spoke about was Himself and His Father. So for me..very refreshing to read your post.

 

[Dave L]

Negative proof claim.

I furnished scriptural proof the kingdom is spiritual only. Let's see your physical kingdom proof.

 

[bbyrd009]

"1000 years" is not symbolic for Eternity

hmm, are you sure?
What is the def of eternity then? Ty

 

[bbyrd009]

Thank you...excellent post!

Not many people have grasped that the "mansion" Jesus spoke about was Himself and His Father. So for me..very refreshing to read your post.

that part anyway, ya!

 

[ScottA]

To speculate when the so called "rapture" takes place, one might just as well ask or guess, "What time is it?"

The problem is...the very nature of such a question or speculation, is ungodly. God doesn't exist within the hands of time, He simply is ("I am").

Thus, the entire question or speculation, becomes a matter of men and their toil to understand God by looking where He cannot be found. How foolish is the one who feels the warmth on his back and ask, "I don't see it before me. Where is the sun? Surely it will pop up here, or perhaps there."

 

[friend of]

Revelation uses symbols. The 1000 years is not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed.

Thrones and reigning in Revelation 20:4 sure make it sound like a kingdom. I just flatly disagree that 1000 years is supposed to be symbolic. (Symbolic for what?)

If what your saying is true, and Rev 20:6 is talking about the final judgement where the righteous rise to eternal life and the wicked are separated, then Rev 20:7-9 are out of place, for there would be no Gog and Magog in the new heavens and new earth.

 

[friend of]

The problem is...the very nature of such a question or speculation, is ungodly

Not in the least. We discuss it because we are so eager for it. 2 Timothy 4:8

 

[Dave L]

Thrones and reigning in Revelation 20:4 sure make it sound like a kingdom. I just flatly disagree that 1000 years is supposed to be symbolic. (Symbolic for what?)

If what your saying is true, and Rev 20:6 is talking about the final judgement where the righteous rise to eternal life and the wicked are separated, then Rev 20:7-9 are out of place, for there would be no Gog and Magog in the new heavens and new earth.

The kingdom is eternal, not merely 100 years. Here's what the symbols mean;

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel); The gospel sent to the whole world.

the 1000 years = Satan bound from deceiving the elect. The saints rule over him. the 1000 years end = Satan loosed.

Note the 1000 years are not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when they end and he is loosed.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in = immanent return of Christ) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

“Jesus said, “This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.” (John 12:30–31)

So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.