Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.
- Thread starter Anthony D'Arienzo
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Now we are getting down to it. You have stated what you believe and why. I see we have some things where we can find agreement. When I get online I will sort this out and clarify a bit more.
We will now be able to identify where we agree and why we cannot agree on the other points.
I will not bite your head off, instead we can begin to work through it.
Yes ...faith is the instrument....by or through faith. Never because of faith.
So, the next step is for you to explain how by does not mean because of...because to me they seem to be speaking of things that are entirely synonymous in the context of the passage given.
If faith is the instrument by which we gain access into grace, how is it that some of you teach that faith comes as the result of grace?
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
This isn't true. You're overlooking context and other Scripture I've given that shows your take is incorrect. Perhaps you will someday see this and understand the Gospel clearly. Don't hold to your pride, instead let Scripture correct you.
There are several meanings to the word faith
We are here speaking of a saving faith that has a divine origin .
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
If faith is the instrument by which we gain access into grace, why then do you have to exercise faith?
JBF, you need to balance that passage with others. Consider;
“When Apollos wanted to cross over to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he assisted greatly those who had believed by grace,” (Acts 18:27)
“When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48)
“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Acts 16:14)
More available......
Saving faith is by definition that which gives us access into grace...since our salvation is by grace (through faith).
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
No one is able to come to Christ. You're still misusing and misunderstanding the Gospel.
Again:
Romans 5:2 is about the already converted, not the ability of those lost to come to God. Jesus states none are able; John 6:44; John 6:65.
No. One. Can. Come. = Words of Christ.
Not that they may not come, but that they can not come. Understand? It is as simple as knowing the difference between "may" and "can."
Now, start off biblically as corrected above, and move forward. Today would be a good day for you to grow. Romans 5:2 is not about becoming saved.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Scripture says we are saved by...
Grace.
We are not saved by faith.
Faith is the same power that raised Christ; Ephesians 1:19; and is granted by God, Philippians 1:29. You didn't have inherent ability, in fact you had none; John 6:44; John 6:65.
Several have offered other Scripture to you that show these truths, yet you continue to go back to one verse, out of context, which means you're misusing it, so your entire base is then faulty. Why is it you continue to dodge this major fault in your teaching? Pride? We try to point t it all to Christ, you try to point it all to you by misusing Scripture.
So.... I guess these verses are not going to be dealt with?
They would not be able to be in contradiction to what I have shown to be true: the fact that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, in Romans 5:2. So I'll check into them when I have the time, perhaps when I read them in their context during my devotional time.
Because I would prefer not to go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Isa 28:13, But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
But you yourself said that each verse can stand as its own truth; why does context suddenly matter?
Context has always mattered in my view. However, when preaching, I take issue with the evasive contention that a passage is taken out of context. That is a cop-out.
When we are spending time studying the word, certain verses will jump out at us, and the context of them isn't irrelevant to our understanding when we are reading it that way. But when we are ministering verses by actually quoting them, and the other person reads them and then says that they are taken out of context, that person is usually trying to dodge the word that the Holy Spirit is bringing to them. I would suggest to them that they go and read the passage in its context and see if the context truly nullifies what the Holy Spirit is trying to say to them by the verse. But if someone is attempting to bring a string of verses to me and does not bother to quote them and yet wants me to believe that they prove his point, I would suggest that he actually quote the verses so that they can be read publicly and responded to publicly; otherwise I will read them on my own time when I get to them in my regular reading.
Thus it is also true that I have also seen those verses in their context and that they have not ministered to me what you think they mean; since I have read through the entire Bible quite a few times in my life.
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
In other words you're not going to deal with the texts which refute and instruct you, correct? Just bury your head, and pretend they're not there?
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