Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

They teach that grace comes before faith, which would bring someone to that conclusion by implication.



If you want to insist on it I might be able to dredge them up...but I would rather not have to go to the trouble of doing so.



I feel that I did respond, and that because you did not have an adequate response for what I said, you have repeatedly claimed and are claiming that I didn't.

I am asking you to respond to all 11 verses in Roman's 5:1-11....not just mention two verses. Copy what I posted then comment on each line,agree or if you disagree post why you do not agree.
I know these Calvinistic maniacs did not post anything like what you said, because I would have responded against any such idea. You might have misread a post, but they do not teach that.
Grace,faith, repentance, all happen simultaneously at regeneration when the Holy Spirit Grant's a new heart to the sinner. Then and only then does the sinner repent and believe the gospel,receiving Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am currently working on a commentary on the entire book of Romans, and I don't want to be redundant. As soon as I have finished with verse 11, I will let you know. I am currently almost there, as I just finished with verse 8 yesterday (in chapter 5).

 

[justbyfaith]

I am asking you to respond to all 11 verses in Roman's 5:1-11....not just mention two verses. Copy what I posted then comment on each line,agree or if you disagree post why you do not agree.
I know these Calvinistic maniacs did not post anything like what you said, because I would have responded against any such idea. You might have misread a post, but they do not teach that.
Grace,faith, repentance, all happen simultaneously at regeneration when the Holy Spirit Grant's a new heart to the sinner. Then and only then does the sinner repent and believe the gospel,receiving Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

Why don't you ask @Dave L whether he believes that grace or faith come first in our salvation?

He is very much Calvinistic. If you are going to say that you are not in agreement with him, then you have a problem with unity in doctrine.

 

[justbyfaith]

Grace,faith, repentance, all happen simultaneously

Faith comes first, since we have gained access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.

 

[Dave L]

Faith comes first, since we have gained access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, you have it backwards. Grace precedes giving the Holy Spirit which precedes faith which gives us access to the grace we already have. It is the set of keys to the new car so to speak.

 

[justbyfaith]

I find that Calvinists will often teach something until it is refuted; and then they switch over and say that that is not what they really believe. When the heat is off, they will go back to teaching the other thing.

 

[Dave L]

I find that Calvinists will often teach something until it is refuted; and then they switch over and say that that is not what they really believe. When the heat is off, they will go back to teaching the other thing.

When have Calvinists ever been refuted?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Faith comes first, since we have gained access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.

We are never said to be savedBECAUSE of faith anywhere in the bible.
It is always,BY or THROUGH faith. Never Because of.
Faith is the instrument not the cause.

 

[justbyfaith]

We are never said to be savedBECAUSE of faith anywhere in the bible.
It is always,BY or THROUGH faith. Never Because of.
Faith is the instrument not the cause.

What's the difference?

If faith is the instrument by which we are saved, then we cannot be saved without it. How then is it that some say that salvation can come before faith?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Why don't you ask @Dave L whether he believes that grace or faith come first in our salvation?

He is very much Calvinistic. If you are going to say that you are not in agreement with him, then you have a problem with unity in doctrine.

Dave will answer for himself.
Now are you suggesting that each believer must walk in lock step with each other?
Christians are at different levels of growth and maturity.
So your idea is to try and find an area where someone might word things slightly differently, rather than look for the scriptural truth.
I sometimes disagree with Dave, more in regards to law and grace,than these other issues. I do not question his profession of faith, just where he is at on the issue of the law.
He offers why he thinks I am mistaken, I do the same. That is healthy interaction. I do not have to say he is a worker of Satan, or question his salvation.
He might know more than me on certain topics. Maybe ye has studied more, or heard some good teaching that I have not. It would be foolish of me to not listen.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

What's the difference?

If faith is the instrument by which we are saved, then we cannot be saved without it. How then is it that some say that salvation can come before faith?

The difference is saving faith is much different than mere human trust because of the lasting effects of the fall.
Notice I said it happens simultaneously...at the same time, when the Spirit regenerates a dead sinner to life.
A dead sinner has to be granted spiritual life, as they are a a spiritual corpse.

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that when it says we enter into grace by faith, that it means because of faith.

If a dead sinner is granted spiritual life and has faith as the result, then they gained access by grace into faith. And scripture offers the opposite order.

And I would say that even if it does happen simultaneously, the issue is, which is the cause and which is the effect? I contend that the cause is faith and the effect is grace; whereas others who believe in your doctrine would say that the cause is grace and the effect is faith.

But if you actually hold to the former, then I have no argument with you; I believe that you have conceded my point but are attempting to save face by saying that you always believed in it.

 

[Mjh29]

I, too experienced what you went through. I thought I had become saved when the Pastor asked that if anyone would like to come forward and be saved. For the first few months there was no change in me. I still felt miserable. WasGod drawing me at this point?

Yes, because one night I just fell on my knees beside the bed and asked God to save me. After that night I went to a tiny little church close by my house and I’ve stayed there since. It was a reformed believing church and until this day I praise God for saving a wretched like me. I’ve never been so happy in all of my life. Glory alleluia.

To God Be The Glory

That is wonderful to hear! I remember clearly reading and marking in one of the books, and asking the pastor his thoughts, and the discussions we had, about salvation and Christ and anything else I could think of, and that was the point I could tell that God was truly in control. He had saved me, not I saved myself. My trust was in His work, not my own.

It is amazing that you found a church with a pastor who preaches the truth; it is a true blessing!

 

[justbyfaith]

Dave will answer for himself.

So don't answer for @Dave L any longer; let him get on here and start answering for himself.

If you are going to pretend to be unified in the same doctrine you should at least try to believe the same things.

 

[Dave L]

Why don't you ask @Dave L whether he believes that grace or faith come first in our salvation?

He is very much Calvinistic. If you are going to say that you are not in agreement with him, then you have a problem with unity in doctrine.

Here's how it works. People are born spiritually dead. God is Spirit. And spiritually dead people cannot grasp spiritual things according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14. So if any are to know God, he must raise them from their state of spiritual death into a state of spiritual life, called the New Birth. Only then can a person have biblical faith and grasp spiritual truth. So God always makes the first move by raising us from the dead so we can believe.

But what happens, people think they must believe with the flesh before God will save them. But the flesh cannot discern the true God. It in fact hates God when presented with him. The flesh will believe only in a false Christ at a superficial level and remain lost, albeit very religious.

 

[Dave L]

I believe that when it says we enter into grace by faith, that it means because of faith.

If a dead sinner is granted spiritual life and has faith as the result, then they gained access by grace into faith. And scripture offers the opposite order.

And I would say that even if it does happen simultaneously, the issue is which is the casue and which is the effect? I contend that the cause is faith and the effect is grace; where as others who believe in your doctrine would say that the cause is grace and the effect is faith.

But if you actually hold to the former, then I have no argument with you; I believe that you have conceded my point but are attempting to save face by saying that you always believed in it.

Prayer gains access to grace too. We have grace but cannot enjoy it to the fullest without faith, prayer, holiness and so on.

 

[justbyfaith]

I, too experienced what you went through. I thought I had become saved when the Pastor asked that if anyone would like to come forward and be saved. For the first few months there was no change in me. I still felt miserable. WasGod drawing me at this point?

Yes, because one night I just fell on my knees beside the bed and asked God to save me.

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I believe that you truly called on the name of the Lord the moment your prayer was truly genuine. Calling on the name of the Lord in church may not have saved you immediately; but it may have begun the process.

Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I believe that the Lord saved you as the result of the fact that you asked Him to do so.

From the perspective of eternity He chose you before you were even born. But from the perspective of time; and of cause and effect: He chose you because He foreknew that you would make a decision for Christ; then He actively worked to bring that about. Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2.

 

[Dave L]

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I believe that you truly called on the name of the Lord the moment your prayer was truly genuine. Calling on the name of the Lord in church may not have saved you immediately; but it may have begun the process.

Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I believe that the lord saved you as the result of the fact that you asked Him to do so.

From the perspective of eternity He chose you before you were even born. But from the perspective of time; and of cause and effect: He chose you because He foreknew that you would make a decision for Christ. Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2.

= salvation for the self-righteous only, and not for those who cannot save themselves. It makes God a respecter of persons which he is not.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I believe that when it says we enter into grace by faith, that it means because of faith.

Romans 5:2 is about the already converted, not the ability of those lost to come to God. Jesus states none are able; John 6:44; John 6:65.

No. One. Can. Come. = Words of Christ.

Not that they may not come, but that they can not come. Understand? It is as simple as knowing the difference between "may" and "can."

Now, start off biblically as corrected above, and move forward. Today would be a good day for you to grow.

 

[Mjh29]

If a dead sinner is granted spiritual life and has faith as the result, then they gained access by grace into faith. And scripture offers the opposite order.

Really? Let's find out:

Spiritual Deadness:
Genesis 2:16-17
Romans 5:12
Ephesians 2:1-3
Colossians 2:13
Psalms 51:5
Psalms 58:3
John 3:5-7
John 1:12-13

Warped minds and Corrupted hearts:
Genesis 6:5
Genesis 8:21
Ecclesiastes 9:3
Jeremiah 17:9
Mark 7:21-23
John 3:19
Romans 8:7-8
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 4:17-19
Ephesians 5:8
Titus 1:15

Enslaved to Satan and to Sin
John 8:44
Ephesians 2:1-2
2 Timothy 2:25-26
1 John 3:10
1 John 5:19
John 8:34
Romans 6:20
Titus 3:3

Inability to Change
Job 14:4
Jeremiah 13:23
Matthew 7:16-18
Matthew 12:33
John 6:44
John 6:65
Romans 11:35-36
1 Corinthians 2:14
1 Corinthians 4:7
2 Corinthians 3:5

God's choice of some was not based on their merit or their choice of Him
Romans 9:11-13
Romans 9:16
Romans 10:20
1 Corinthians 1:27-29
2 Timothy 1:9
Acts 13:48
Acts 18:27
Philippians 1:29
Philippians 2:12-13
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
James 2:5


Good works are the result of, and not the grounds for, predestination
Ephesians 2:10
John 15:16

Faith and Good works confirm the calling; they are not the cause
2 Peter 1:5-11

Election precedes Salvation
Romans 11:7
2 Timothy 2:10
Acts 13:48
Ephesians 1:4
Romans 16:7

Christ secured faith, regeneration and sanctification
Ephesians 1:3-4
Philippians 1:29
Acts 5:31
Titus 2:14
Titus 3:5-6
Ephesians 5:25-26
1 Corinthians 1:30
Hebrews 9:14
Hebrews 13:12
1 John 1:7

The Father gave Christ the Sheep; the Sheep did not give themselves to Christ
John 10:11
John 10:14-18
John 10:24-29

Paul declares that all spiritual blessings, including Faith, are from God
Ephesians 1:3-12

The Holy Spirit gives new birth
John 1:12-13
John 3:3-8
Titus 3:5
1 Peter 1:3
1 Peter 1:23
1 John 5:4

The Holy Spirit gives a new heart
Deuteronomy 30:6
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ezekiel 11:19
Galatians 6:15
Ephesians 2:10
2 Corinthians 5:17-18

The Holy Spirit makes us accept Christ
John 5:21
Ephesians 2:1
Ephesians 2:5
Colossians 2:13

The Spirit gives faith and repentance
Acts 5:31
Acts 11:18
Acts 13:48
Acts 16:14
Acts 18:27
Ephesians 2:8-9
Philippians 1:29
2 Timothy 2:25-26

A person cannot do anything, even 'get faith', apart from God making him able
John 3:27
John 17:2
Romans 9:16
1 Corinthians 3:6-7
1 Corinthians 4:7
Philippians 2:12-13
James 1:18
1 John 5:20


The Scriptures seem pretty clear; it all [including