Here we go - Slavery

[Vince]

1. How was my answer "not internally consistent" and "circular." I only ask, because regardless of how you may see it, you are wrong and that is the problem - you are looking at it all wrong. So, if you want to get to the bottom of it, let's hear the details of your objection.

You said this:
"The object of slavery is not to free the slaves in the way that you have purposed. The object is to free people like you who are virtually asleep and have not woken up to the reality of eternal slavery and the consequence of going against God. It is people like you who have not learned. You are the reason the world continues to experience slavery. Sorry, grown up answer. You asked for it."

If this is true then god is evil. He is using real people and making real people suffer to make a point to other people like me but never say this in his word. Where in the bible does god say I am codifying slavery so you unbelievers will believe and be saved? Then you try to blame me for slavery when it is you and your god that condone it, I never have. I don't see anywhere in the bible where you take here is supported.

You are not being honest or fair. I told you very clearly that slavery is soooo wrong that God has had to step in, and that it only exists because He intends to save us from our own self destruction.

So God says slavery is so wrong so to make his point he institutes evil rules for slavery. This makes no sense, it is gibberish and unsupported by any bible passages so far.

Again, you have refused to see the obvious...literally the whole world. I nor God have left anything unanswered. You refusing it, is the problem.

The problem is your standard for belief. You are being arrogant when you say that I must believe what you say with absolutely no evidence to support it. Why should I believe what you say.

But my refusal to entertain your questions after you refuse to see or hear or reason, is on you - it is me holding up a mirror. It is also appropriate because, as I have repeatedly said and you have repeatedly refused, that is not how it works. How evidence from God works, is you open your eyes and ears and be honest. But you don't even give God what you give those things you do believe in. Two can play at that. Don't you see (again as I have already repeatedly said), these are your terms...and you are only getting what you yourself will allow for. You have set the limits on God, and that is all He is giving you. But back to how this works. Pay attention: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." In other words, you look around you and see acts of God and hear the witness of His word, and then that word, that "evidence" comes to you from God. Circular. Yes. But if you have a problem with that, you will get nothing and die at the end of your organic existence.

I should start a thread on divine hiddeness. What you have said here is logically inconsistent and seems to come up a lot lately here.

 

[Taken]

No I object to the specific rules not that there are rules for slavery.

Actually I find your objection MOOT.
They did not apply to you.
They did not apply to me.

The only rule I would not object to about slavery would be for god to say stop enslaving others.

Well, God has not provided any New rules.
And doesn't really matter HOW many rules/laws God makes, since it is already well known, men have freewill to adhere to the rules/laws or not.

I am not making rules for slavery. I am objecting to gods rules for slavery.

Do you recognize Converted men are not concerned with your objections?

If I could make rules for slavery I would abolish the practice.

Is that a fact? And exactly what would you do about it...if people ignored your abolishment ?

The fact that you think that it is OK for people to be slaves and treated badly because they are not chosen by god is sick.

The fact that you are speaking something I did not say, is sick.

Yes, but we should try to abolish it in all forms in my opinion.

Well aware of your opinion, and I don't have to rewrite it to say something differently in my words and then proclaim it is sick!

God never tried to do that according to your bible.

According to my Bible My Lord God is with me forever, regardless of what You, the world, thinks, believes or does.

Should we try to free the estimated 40 million slaves living today?

Should YOU, do as you see fit? Yes.
Should YOU, include me in your idea? No.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ScottA]

You said this:
"The object of slavery is not to free the slaves in the way that you have purposed. The object is to free people like you who are virtually asleep and have not woken up to the reality of eternal slavery and the consequence of going against God. It is people like you who have not learned. You are the reason the world continues to experience slavery. Sorry, grown up answer. You asked for it."

If this is true then god is evil. He is using real people and making real people suffer to make a point to other people like me but never say this in his word. Where in the bible does god say I am codifying slavery so you unbelievers will believe and be saved? Then you try to blame me for slavery when it is you and your god that condone it, I never have. I don't see anywhere in the bible where you take here is supported.

No. You misunderstand.

God is not using real people, He is catching dead people before their final exit, and offering to bring them back to life. The damage is already done. God did not do the damage, we did, and yet He is offering to save us from ourselves.

As for the codifying, God said, "I will speak to them in parables", Jesus said, "My words are spirit", and the apostle Paul explained, saying, "the scriptures must be spiritually discerned." It's all there. So, start there. Admit you have been wrong about God's word, and then maybe you can make some progress. But you are never going to get to the greater nuances like slavery if you don't begin at the beginning and change your attitude. I mean, do you hear yourself? I am talking to you like you are a younger sibling giving you a hard time. But it is because you should be respectful of the circumstances - God could squash you like a bug...or just drop you for acting ungrateful. Do you not realize that you are like in a foreign country bad-mouthing the king? You are not being very smart.

But you are also wrong (again, and again) about me and God condoning slavery. I have repeatedly told you just the opposite. But you, you have condoned slavery of yourself, giving God a reason for continuing to leave the example of slavery around the world in place. If it was just God and us who have turned from enslavement, it would be finished already. But you persist. The biblical support can be found in many places in the bible, but basically what we experience in the world is because "with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." By denying the freedom that God has offered, you yourself bring slavery to the table.

 

[ScottA]

So God says slavery is so wrong so to make his point he institutes evil rules for slavery. This makes no sense, it is gibberish and unsupported by any bible passages so far.

The problem here, is that you are grossly unaware of your surroundings and the circumstances. Things seem upside down, not because they are, but because you are. You are acting as if this death is life, and as if the promise of actual life doesn't even exist. If you took the same approach with anything...it would all look wrong, and so it does. Go figure.

I just gave you the biblical passage(s).

But, again, the real problem is that you are looking at things upside down and backwards. God did not cause this, we did. We insisted, and He accommodated us with all the visual effects that only He could muster...and then He sent out a rescue party, and a message of hope and salvation, that those condemned to die by their own doing could pass back from death into life. But here you are in the midst of this world of walking dead, thinking you are alive and ungratefully thinking God owes you an explanation and proof. He owes you nothing, nor do I, or any of us who have been paying attention. That's not fair. We weren't any better than you, He just chose to have us come into the correct knowledge before you, and now we are not only wanting to share, because it is truly fantastic, but we are suppose to share it - that's His plan too.

So...the mirror of this world, this would-be life, is a mere image and a manifestation of everything that is wrong...and we should object to most of it...and make some changes. So - good job, so far, so good! But you are not there yet. You have the handwriting on the wall, now you need to see who wrote it, and respond in the only way that will fix the problem. You will need to begin to see things His way. He is the Way.

 

[ScottA]

The problem is your standard for belief. You are being arrogant when you say that I must believe what you say with absolutely no evidence to support it. Why should I believe what you say.

You should not just believe me.

To be clear, I am not telling you what I "believe." I am telling you what I know. There are those who can only tell you what they believe...and with God they are more esteemed than I, but I am not one of them. I came unto the knowledge of God before I ever believed.

Now... You should not just believe me...or anyone. However, collectively, you have everything you need to put the pieces together and come up with the correct information. God has provided it. If not...I would seriously recommend you look harder - your life depends on it. You see, if you were actually correct that God has not given you everything you need to piece it together...then that is His plan, and this is it, this is all there is for you. But I would look again. It is His desire that you do.

 

[ScottA]

I should start a thread on divine hiddeness. What you have said here is logically inconsistent and seems to come up a lot lately here.

No, you should put on a blindfold and give us all your great observations, so we can have a good laugh, or cry.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

In history we can see that one becomes a Slave because he is an idiot or a fool.
It starts with being a slave to Sin.
A slave is like one in Jail, he has to work for his freedom.

Evil can enslave as well as such is the nature of Sin.
The Devil want's all to become Slaves or make Slaves out of you all, that's his will.
Communism is all about enslaving all under their Godless ways.
Socialism is a work of man and God or Jesus has no rights worthy in such a Deception that only leads to enslavement under Communism.
An Atheist is like the Blind leading the Blind off a cliff.

When the Jews were paying to get Moslems to runabout stealing the Negros to send as Slaves to the USA that was truly Satanic.
But the Negro Tribes always did the same with other Negros, even way before the Jews who owned them big ships and then went and sold them because they were making fantastic money out of selling the Negros as Slaves.

 

[Vince]

No. You misunderstand.

God is not using real people, He is catching dead people before their final exit, and offering to bring them back to life. The damage is already done. God did not do the damage, we did, and yet He is offering to save us from ourselves.

He wrote rules for beating slaves, that is contributing to the damage.

As for the codifying, God said, "I will speak to them in parables", Jesus said, "My words are spirit", and the apostle Paul explained, saying, "the scriptures must be spiritually discerned." It's all there. So, start there. Admit you have been wrong about God's word, and then maybe you can make some progress. But you are never going to get to the greater nuances like slavery if you don't begin at the beginning and change your attitude.

Slavery is not a nuance. It has direct bearing on real peoples lives. People have used these verses in the bible to support slavery of different kinds. It is clear that these are rules for actual slavery, they were used for that purpose etc. Many other Christians do not believe what you are saying here so why believe you over them?

I mean, do you hear yourself? I am talking to you like you are a younger sibling giving you a hard time. But it is because you should be respectful of the circumstances - God could squash you like a bug...or just drop you for acting ungrateful. Do you not realize that you are like in a foreign country bad-mouthing the king? You are not being very smart.

I have no reason to believe the king exists. Should I be afraid of the boogieman in the closet just in case he exists?

But you are also wrong (again, and again) about me and God condoning slavery. I have repeatedly told you just the opposite. But you, you have condoned slavery of yourself, giving God a reason for continuing to leave the example of slavery around the world in place. If it was just God and us who have turned from enslavement, it would be finished already. But you persist. The biblical support can be found in many places in the bible, but basically what we experience in the world is because "with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." By denying the freedom that God has offered, you yourself bring slavery to the table.

Nonsense. Where does your god make rules for any other sin such as homosexuality or lying? They exist so why not make rules for those sins as well. The fact is that the bible has rules for slavery in the OT and NT and it does not once say to abolish it or that it is a sin. You trying to make it say it is against slavery because god made rules for slavery and allowed it to continue is an example of how your mind has been twisted by your religion. It is not logical and it is senseless nonsense.

 

[Vince]

But, again, the real problem is that you are looking at things upside down and backwards. God did not cause this, we did. We insisted, and He accommodated us with all the visual effects that only He could muster...and then He sent out a rescue party, and a message of hope and salvation, that those condemned to die by their own doing could pass back from death into life. But here you are in the midst of this world of walking dead, thinking you are alive and ungratefully thinking God owes you an explanation and proof. He owes you nothing, nor do I, or any of us who have been paying attention. That's not fair. We weren't any better than you, He just chose to have us come into the correct knowledge before you, and now we are not only wanting to share, because it is truly fantastic, but we are suppose to share it - that's His plan too.

I am not asking for proof. That lie has been propagated on this site by many. Why? It seems you don't want to know the difference because then you may have more apologetic problems.

So...the mirror of this world, this would-be life, is a mere image and a manifestation of everything that is wrong...and we should object to most of it...and make some changes. So - good job, so far, so good! But you are not there yet. You have the handwriting on the wall, now you need to see who wrote it, and respond in the only way that will fix the problem. You will need to begin to see things His way. He is the Way.

Which way? Which christian has the correct interpretation of scripture? You? or bbyrd009, stranger, Reggie, Taken? They all have different ideas about god that they want be to accept. I did seek god honestly and earnestly for years and that is the major reason I am an atheist.

 

[Vince]

In history we can see that one becomes a Slave because he is an idiot or a fool.
It starts with being a slave to Sin.
A slave is like one in Jail, he has to work for his freedom.

Evil can enslave as well as such is the nature of Sin.
The Devil want's all to become Slaves or make Slaves out of you all, that's his will.
Communism is all about enslaving all under their Godless ways.
Socialism is a work of man and God or Jesus has no rights worthy in such a Deception that only leads to enslavement under Communism.
An Atheist is like the Blind leading the Blind off a cliff.

When the Jews were paying to get Moslems to runabout stealing the Negros to send as Slaves to the USA that was truly Satanic.
But the Negro Tribes always did the same with other Negros, even way before the Jews who owned them big ships and then went and sold them because they were making fantastic money out of selling the Negros as Slaves.

Why didn't god just condemn slavery in teh bible like other sins?

 

[ScottA]

He wrote rules for beating slaves, that is contributing to the damage.

You are moving way too fast and missing things, important things.

If you yourself were to make a bunch of sketches of your plans for a house then burn them and build your house, should God accuse you of doing "damage" as you now are accusing Him?

You are walking on dangerous ground.

Sounds like your choice is already made. Fine. Your choice.

Fire awaits.

 

[ScottA]

I did seek god honestly and earnestly for years and that is the major reason I am an atheist.

But not completely, not until the end. You gave God a fraction, and so shall it be measured back to you.

 

[Vince]

But not completely, not until the end. You gave God a fraction, and so shall it be measured back to you.

Telling me that I did not honestly and earnestly seek him for years when I know that I did is evidence that your god does not exist.

 

[Vince]

You are moving way too fast and missing things, important things.

If you yourself were to make a bunch of sketches of your plans for a house then burn them and build your house, should God accuse you of doing "damage" as you now are accusing Him?

You are walking on dangerous ground.

Sounds like your choice is already made. Fine. Your choice.

Fire awaits.

More fear, I got it. Christianity tells us that we will go to hell then tells us it has the cure. Don't con artists do this same thing?

 

[Marymog]

"Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing." (Ex 21:1-2, ESV)

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money." (Ex 21:20-21 ESV)

This verse in context is saying these things:
1. God made rules for one person to enslave another by.
2. God says here that a slave is another persons money, dehumanizing them.
3. God made rules for one person to beat another with a rod.
4. God is ok with a slave being beaten so bad that he may only survive a day or two as long as you don't hit them in the eye or make a tooth come out (26-27).

Why is this god, if he exists, to be followed? Or, are these verses saying something different?

Hi,

You ask some very good questions AND use scripture for support.....I love it.

First off, I wonder what “slave” is in this passage since Exodus 21:16 says anyone who kidnaps another is to be put to death.

What I am saying/asking: Is it possible these “slaves” were indentured or voluntary slaves? What I mean by voluntary is maybe sold themselves to pay off a dept?

Thank you for the tough questions.

Mary

 

[ScottA]

More fear, I got it. Christianity tells us that we will go to hell then tells us it has the cure. Don't con artists do this same thing?

Telling me that I did not honestly and earnestly seek him for years when I know that I did is evidence that your god does not exist.

The gig is up dude. You're not being honest. You're finished.

 

[Vince]

Hi,

You ask some very good questions AND use scripture for support.....I love it.

First off, I wonder what “slave” is in this passage since Exodus 21:16 says anyone who kidnaps another is to be put to death.

What I am saying/asking: Is it possible these “slaves” were indentured or voluntary slaves? What I mean by voluntary is maybe sold themselves to pay off a dept?

Thank you for the tough questions.

Mary

Thanks for the respectful tone. I will try to do the same.

Some of them were but in Lev 25:44-46 it says that the Israelite's could go and buy slaves from other nations or buy temporary residents in the lands. These are not voluntary slaves. Even for the voluntary slaves, is this rule that a master can beat them so they don't die within two days just and moral in your opinion?

 

[Vince]

The gig is up dude. You're not being honest. You're finished.

I have not been dishonest. If you think I have feel free to not engage me.

 

[ScottA]

I have not been dishonest. If you think I have feel free to not engage me.

Done.

 

[Marymog]

Thanks for the respectful tone. I will try to do the same.

Some of them were but in Lev 25:44-46 it says that the Israelite's could go and buy slaves from other nations or buy temporary residents in the lands. These are not voluntary slaves. Even for the voluntary slaves, is this rule that a master can beat them so they don't die within two days just and moral in your opinion?

Your welcome.

The verse you quoted says "When a man strikes his slave,...." It doesn't say that a man CAN strike his slave or "beat them" as you put it.

The rule says if the slave owner goes to far and kills the slave then the slave owner is to be punished so there is punishment for the death of the slave. I don't get the "within two days" part. It makes no sense to me.

It is not moral to needlessly beat anyone; free or slave. I do not understand why there are rules for slavery in Scripture. Are rules for slavery in Scripture rock solid evidence there is no God?


Mary