Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.
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That is your OPINION, Dave. Which claims are you denying--and why? You need to pray about this and pray that the Holy Spirit would give you discernment to properly understand what the Bible teaches. It teaches a physical Kingdom of Israel that will stand for 1,000 years before it too fails. At the Final Judgment, NO ONE will be able to say that God is unjust. It is all there in the Scripture, Dave. No amount of spiritualized hand-waving will make it go away.
This is not true. Jesus taught a spiritual eternal kingdom only. The pharisees taught a physical kingdom. You need to study Jesus before you study Revelation.
I've studied BOTH. Jesus came to call the lost sheep of Israel back to spiritual conformity to Yahweh's righteousness before the granting of the physical Kingdom. The Pharisees thought that they were already good enough spiritually because they were scrupulous about keeping to the letter of the Law of Moses. But Jesus accused them of ignoring the spirit of the Law. Saul/Paul, in his zeal for the letter of the Law, persecuted Christians--until he was given new sight and a new heart.
There is no physical kingdom. If so, prove it from the gospels or epistles.
Please--really look at Peter's Temple sermon from Acts 3:12-26. I can give you many other references but the Acts 3 passage is good for a start.
This speaks of the resurrection of believers (Israel) on the last day and their entrance into the new heavens and earth. Only the Father knows the time for this. Matthew 24:36; Acts 1:7
What do you think the phrase, "the restoration of all things" in Peter's sermon was referencing? And why did the Lord Jesus initially tell His disciples to avoid going to the Gentiles and Samaritans but to go only to the people of Israel--God's lost sheep? (Matthew 10:5-6) And then, why did He, at the end of Matthew, in the Great Commission, broaden it to Judea, Samaria and the whole world? Why did the disciples go "to the Jew first" and then go to the Gentiles? Your theology cannot answer these questions. Mine can and does.
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This happens in the resurrection and rapture on the last day, into the new heavens and earth. This is Israel's restoration of all things.
That is definitely NOT how the Jews at the Temple would have understood Peter's point.
It is how Jesus originally and the enlightened later understood as the New Testament came together.
You will simply be unable to fit your flawed concept into Revelation 13.
There may be some superficial resemblances to the Antichrist, but the Vatican has never actually controlled all the economic transactions of all the people around the world, with a demand to take a Mark on the right hand or on the forehead upon pain of death.
Jesus also told the Pharisees that the Kingdom would not be the physical Kingdom they expected.
“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20–21)
From these two passages we learn that Jesus’ Kingdom is not physical nor at any time of this world, but instead, it is spiritual and Heavenly, existing in the soul.
Peter proclaimed *the Kingdom arrived on the Day of Pentecost*. It happened, not as many expected, with pomp, might and an overthrow of the Roman occupation, but through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit;
“But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:16). “[David] Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that *God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne*, **he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ**…..” (Acts 2:30–31)
Thus, Peter not only said the long awaited Kingdom had been restored, he said the resurrection of Christ placed Jesus on David’s throne - in Heaven.
Paul developing the same thought tells us “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:25–26)
So the restored Kingdom began with Jesus’ resurrection, arrived at Pentecost and lasts in its present form until the resurrection on the Last Day. “Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” (1 Corinthians 15:24)
Copperhead
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No it is not subjective that two witnesses, minimum, is required to establish a matter.
Deuteronomy states in a number of places that a matter can only be established on the testimony of two or more witnesses. The Bereans affirmed that standard and showed how it is applied to doctrine. They listened to what Paul taught them (which later would make up a good portion of the NT), and they searched to scripture (the OT which is all they had) to see if what Paul taught them was true. So therefore, for any matter of doctrine to be established, it must be confirmed on the testimony of the two witnesses... the OT and the NT.
I realize that sets the bar high that most would like, but then, matters of doctrine require a high standard of affirmation. And the standard was commended by the Holy Spirit in Acts 17. That makes it non subjective in my book. And it makes life so much simpler for the serious believer. If eliminates a lot of wild stuff that gets tossed around as doctrine based on a couple of cherry picked verses.
Copperhead
Well-Known Member
I do believe it was for a far more nobler purpose than most of what we have gotten into ever since. And if you lived thru the riots, revolts, protests, etc that went on the 60's and 70's during the VN war, one would be hard pressed to make the argument that our culture was fascinated with the violence of the war. I clearly remember the Democrat Convention of '68 in Chicago, the college campus protests, etc. And how we as veterans were despised when we returned and many of us kept our service as best a secret as we could. No one dared wear a uniform off base during that time.
At that time, it WAS spiritual only. But that does not preclude a physical Kingdom of Israel in the future. Ezekiel 37 makes clear that Israel will be regathered in the Land in unbelief and then the Holy Spirit will be sent by God the Father to do a work among them. Here is an article that is from Arnold Fruchtenbaum which explains a lot: The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament
Jesus say you cannot see the kingdom unless born again. This rules out a physical kingdom.
Copperhead
Well-Known Member
Some, like C.H. Spurgeon have postulated that the reference in Revelation has not only the Messiah in view, but his Body as well. The dual application could include the removal of the body of Messiah, the redeemed. The word about caught up is harpazo - rapture - snatch away. That term was never used of Messiah's ascension back to the Father. so it could have the Body of Messiah in view.
You are correct. The woman is Israel from Genesis 37:9-11.
They WILL be born again and then they will "see Him who they have pierced" and mourn. (see Zechariah 10:12).
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