Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Dave L]

Now you're redefining Biblical terms!

You're actually arguing that a small minority of disenfranchised Jewish saints represent the nation of Israel, while the entire religious ruling class and the masses of Jews which joined them in shouting "Crucify Him!" - and continued the entire Israelite sacrificial economy for another FORTY YEARS afterward - do not.

Jesus IS Israel as revealed in the New Covenant. Along with those who trust in him.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus IS Israel as revealed in the New Covenant. Along with those who trust in him.

Absolutely, which means that the only way anyone today can be a true Israelite is according to whether he makes Jesus his "blessed and only Potentate", not according to real estate.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Israel did embrace Jesus as the Messiah. God rejected those who did not and grafted believing gentiles into their place.

Once and for all: THE CHURCH IS NOT ISRAEL! The Church is a spiritual kingdom--Jesus said so--it is a blessing for ALL nations. Israel is a mortal national entity. Israel has never yet occupied all of the geography outlined in the Book of Ezekiel. It will when the physical Kingdom of Israel is restored. It is unthinkable that the irrevocable promises of the prophecies of the latter prophets (which did NOT depend on obedience) would be overturned.

Here is a teaching about the Kingdom of Israel which is seen from Matthew's point of view. It deals with prophecy from Micah that we Christians love to quote:

"In Matthew 2 we have recorded the response of the Jewish leaders to the question of Herod, who "inquired of them where the Christ (Messiah) should be born" (v. 4). The response was, 'In Bethlehem of Judea'; and in support, Micah 5:2 is cited, which says that from Bethlehem would 'come a Governor, that shall rule My people Israel' (vv. 5,6).

These words show very clearly that Jesus Christ is to rule the nation of Israel. However, anyone wishing to object to this could point out that it was the Jewish leaders who cited the prophecy, and they were mistaken about the true role of the Messiah they looked for. In reply to this...

...The angelic revelation quoted above from Luke 1:32,33 links perfectly with this, confirming our understanding that Micah 5:2 refers to the restored Kingdom of Israel, and that this promised restoration will be fulfilled literally.

 

[Dave L]

Once and for all: THE CHURCH IS NOT ISRAEL! The Church is a spiritual kingdom--Jesus said so--it is a blessing for ALL nations. Israel is a mortal national entity. Israel has never yet occupied all of the geography outlined in the Book of Ezekiel. It will when the physical Kingdom of Israel is restored. It is unthinkable that the irrevocable promises of the prophecies of the latter prophets (which did NOT depend on obedience) would be overturned.

Here is a teaching about the Kingdom of Israel which is seen from Matthew's point of view. It deals with prophecy from Micah that we Christians love to quote:

"In Matthew 2 we have recorded the response of the Jewish leaders to the question of Herod, who "inquired of them where the Christ (Messiah) should be born" (v. 4). The response was, 'In Bethlehem of Judea'; and in support, Micah 5:2 is cited, which says that from Bethlehem would 'come a Governor, that shall rule My people Israel' (vv. 5,6).

These words show very clearly that Jesus Christ is to rule the nation of Israel. However, anyone wishing to object to this could point out that it was the Jewish leaders who cited the prophecy, and they were mistaken about the true role of the Messiah they looked for. In reply to this...

...The angelic revelation quoted above from Luke 1:32,33 links perfectly with this, confirming our understanding that Micah 5:2 refers to the restored Kingdom of Israel, and that this promised restoration will be fulfilled literally.

You are wrong. God removed the unbelievers from Israel and grafted believing gentiles into their place. To whom does God reattach the broken off branches by faith if they are Israel?

“Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:22–24)

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Jesus IS Israel as revealed in the New Covenant. Along with those who trust in him.

No--He is the Messiah of Israel. The ancient Hebrew writers believed that there would be two Messiahs--Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David, instead of ONE Messiah who came twice. The one they were expecting was the Messiah who would conquer their enemies and take them out from under the heel of Rome, who would then, rule in Righteousness from David's throne. The one they got (and rejected) was the "Suffering Messiah" of Isaiah 53 who would turn them back spiritually to God. But God still did not give up on them (do you not think that the Father anticipated their rejection??). He is doing a work, by His Spirit, even among the Israelis today. It is estimated that there are 250,000 Messianic Jews in Israel today and many are converting daily. To the point where, along with Christian Palestinians, they have been promised that they will have representation in the Knesset.

 

[Dave L]

No--He is the Messiah of Israel. The ancient Hebrew writers believed that there would be two Messiahs--Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David, instead of ONE Messiah who came twice. The one they were expecting was the Messiah who would conquer their enemies and take them out from under the heel of Rome, who would then, rule in Righteousness from David's throne. The one they got (and rejected) was the "Suffering Messiah" of Isaiah 53 who would turn them back spiritually to God. But God still did not give up on them (do you not think that the Father anticipated their rejection??). He is doing a work, by His Spirit, even among the Israelis today. It is estimated that there are 250,000 Messianic Jews in Israel today and many are converting daily. To the point where, along with Christian Palestinians, they have been promised that they will have representation in the Knesset.

Jesus is Abraham's seed = Israel.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

“Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:22–24)

Yes--exactly so. The "tree" in question, I believe, is the Tree of Life in God.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Jesus is Abraham's seed = Israel.

No. The "woman" with the crown of 12 stars of Revelation 12 is the symbol of Israel and "she" gives birth to the Messiah Jesus. You have posed something that would create and absurdity--(Jesus is the "woman" and gives birth to Himself??).

 

[Dave L]

No. The "woman" with the crown of 12 stars of Revelation 12 is the symbol of Israel and "she" gives birth to the Messiah Jesus. You have posed something that would create and absurdity--(Jesus is the "woman" and gives birth to Himself??).

Woman = Church of the Old Covenant.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Woman = Church of the Old Covenant.

Now you are making things up--there is no such thing as the "Church of the Old Covenant".

Jesus said He came only to the lost sheep of Israel.

 

[Dave L]

Now you are making things up--there is no such thing as the "Church of the Old Covenant".

Congregation of the Lord mentioned over 300 times = Church of the Lord.

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Congregation of the Lord mentioned over 300 times = Church of the Lord.

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)

Synagogue means the same thing--both church and synagogue, in the Bible, are referring to the assembly of God's people (except for one reference to the assembly of Satan). Beside that, you have misquoted the Acts 7:38 passage--it SAYS the assembly of God's people--NOT the Church. Why are you so determined to remove Israel from any further consideration? The Nazis tried to do the same thing in the Lutheran churches in Germany--to the point of giving them Bibles in which all references to Jesus' Jewish identity had been removed.

 

[Dave L]

Synagogue means the same thing--both church and synagogue, in the Bible, are referring to the assembly of God's people (except for one reference to the assembly of Satan). Beside that, you have misquoted the Acts 7:38 passage--it SAYS the assembly of God's people--NOT the Church. Why are you so determined to remove Israel from any further consideration? The Nazis tried to do the same thing in the Lutheran churches in Germany--to the point of giving them Bibles in which all references to Jesus' Jewish identity had been removed.

Church = ③ people with shared belief, community, congregation (for common identity, cp. the community of Pythagoras [Hermippus in Diog. L. 8, 41]. Remarkably, in Himerius, Or. 39 [Or. 5], 5 Orpheus forms for himself τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, a group of wild animals, who listen to him, in the Thracian mountains where there are no people), in our lit. of common interest in the God of Israel.

ⓐ of OT Israelites assembly, congregation (Dt 31:30; Judg 20:2; 1 Km 17:47; 3 Km 8:14; PsSol 10:6; TestJob 32:8 τῆς εὐώδους ἐ.; Philo; Jos., Ant. 4, 309; Diod S 40, 3, 6) Hb 2:12 (Ps 21:23); e.g. to hear the law (Dt 4:10; 9:10; 18:16) Ac 7:38.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Church = ③ people with shared belief, community, congregation (for common identity, cp. the community of Pythagoras [Hermippus in Diog. L. 8, 41]. Remarkably, in Himerius, Or. 39 [Or. 5], 5 Orpheus forms for himself τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, a group of wild animals, who listen to him, in the Thracian mountains where there are no people), in our lit. of common interest in the God of Israel.

ⓐ of OT Israelites assembly, congregation (Dt 31:30; Judg 20:2; 1 Km 17:47; 3 Km 8:14; PsSol 10:6; TestJob 32:8 τῆς εὐώδους ἐ.; Philo; Jos., Ant. 4, 309; Diod S 40, 3, 6) Hb 2:12 (Ps 21:23); e.g. to hear the law (Dt 4:10; 9:10; 18:16) Ac 7:38.

You do not enhance your argument by resorting to pagans for justifying your remarks. It says the ASSEMBLY--not some made up thing "the Church of the Old Covenant".

You still have yet to deal with Jesus' statement that He came only to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 15:24). When looking at it in context, there can be no question that He was excluding other nations from His visitation. He was constantly amazed by the faith of the Gentile God-fearers that He encountered.

 

[Dave L]

You do not enhance your argument by resorting to pagans for justifying your remarks. It says the ASSEMBLY--not some made up thing "the Church of the Old Covenant".

You still have yet to deal with Jesus' statement that He came only to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 15:24). When looking at it in context, there can be no question that He was excluding other nations from His visitation.

Do you go to a root beer stand for a root canal? Of course not. Likewise, we go to the language pros to learn what the language means.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Do you go to a root beer stand for a root canal? Of course not. We go to the language pros to learn what the language means.

And???

 

[Dave L]

And???

You need books to help you understand the language.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

You need books to help you understand the language.

I probably have more scholarly works than you do but mine are undoubtedly more trustworthy than yours. When someone sets out with an agenda to "prove" some bit of idiosyncratic theology, what is produced is usually a theological mess. Good exegesis means letting the Scriptures speak--it is eisegesis to impose one's own meanings on Scripture--which is what I sincerely believe you are doing, Dave.

 

[Dave L]

I probably have more scholarly works than you do but mine are undoubtedly more trustworthy than yours. When someone sets out with an agenda to "prove" some bit of idiosyncratic theology, what is produced is usually a theological mess. Good exegesis means letting the Scriptures speak--it is eiseigesis to impose one's own meanings on Scripture--which is what I sincerely believe you are doing, Dave.

Every cultist says the same. Only by tedious study and understanding the original languages can we arrive at a sound doctrine.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Every cultist says the same. Only by tedious study and understanding the original languages can we arrive at a sound doctrine.

And NOW you are accusing me of being a "cultist"?? False accusations are evil.