Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Dave L]

Some, like C.H. Spurgeon have postulated that the reference in Revelation has not only the Messiah in view, but his Body as well. The dual application could include the removal of the body of Messiah, the redeemed. The word about caught up is harpazo - rapture - snatch away. That term was never used of Messiah's ascension back to the Father. so it could have the Body of Messiah in view.

You are correct. The woman is Israel from Genesis 37:9-11.

“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.” (Revelation 12:1–3)

Verse 1
a. In this third vision is declared how ye Church which is compassed about with Jesus Christ the Sonne of righteousnes, is persecuted of Antichrist.
b. The Church treadeth under fote whatsoever is mutable, and incōstant, with all corrupt affections and suche like.
c. Which signifie God and his worde.

Verse 2
d. The Church ever with a moste servent desire longed yt Christ shulde be borne, & that the faithful might be regenerate by his power.

Verse 3
e. The devil, & all his power which burneth with furie and is red with ye blood of the faithful.
f. For he is prince of this worlde & almoste hathe ye universal governement.


Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 2, p. 118). Geneva: Rovland Hall.

 

[Dave L]

They WILL be born again and then they will "see Him who they have pierced" and mourn. (see Zechariah 10:12).

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Some, like C.H. Spurgeon have postulated that the reference in Revelation has not only the Messiah in view, but his Body as well. The dual application could include the removal of the body of Messiah, the redeemed. The word about caught up is harpazo - rapture - snatch away. That term was never used of Messiah's ascension back to the Father. so it could have the Body of Messiah in view.

You are correct. The woman is Israel from Genesis 37:9-11.

Yes--I always wondered if that wasn't a case of "double reference".

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

The spiritual Kingdom, no. Even Jesus did not go to the Father in His mortal body, did He? On the day of Resurrection, He told Mary Magdalene to not touch Him because He had not yet ascended to God the Father. That would have made Him ceremonially unclean.

 

[Dave L]

The spiritual Kingdom, no. Even Jesus did not go to the Father in His mortal body, did He? On the day of Resurrection, He told Mary Magdalene to not touch Him because He had not ascended yet to God the Father. That would have made Him ceremonially unclean.

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world.

That's right--when He came the first time, He came to reconcile men to God SPIRITUALLY.

 

[Dave L]

That's right--when He came the first time, He came to reconcile men to God SPIRITUALLY.

He said his kingdom comes without observation. You say it does.

 

[Copperhead]

At that time, it WAS spiritual only. But that does not preclude a physical Kingdom of Israel in the future. Ezekiel 37 makes clear that Israel will be regathered in the Land in unbelief and then the Holy Spirit will be sent by God the Father to do a work among them. Here is an article that is from Arnold Fruchtenbaum which explains a lot: The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament

Fruchtenbaum also wrote the definitive work called "Israelogy: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology". It is amazing that literal Israel makes up 5/6ths of the Bible, yet up till Fruchtenbaum, there was never a definitive section in systematic theology on the unique subject of Israel. Which is probably the reason there is so much misinterpretation and misapplication of Israel in most doctrinal positions.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

He said his kingdom comes without observation. You say it does.

Can you see the spiritual kingdom? How? We know from His Letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation that there are many imposters in the visible churches. Can you see a "Christian" and know whether he/she is in the spiritual kingdom or not?

 

[Dave L]

Can you see the spiritual kingdom? How? We know from His Letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation that there are many imposters in the visible churches. Can you see a "Christian" and know whether he/she is in the spiritual kingdom or not?

Only those born again can see it. And I see it clearly.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Only those born again can see it. And I see it clearly.

Poppycock. Show a passage in the Bible which says such a thing.

 

[Dave L]

Poppycock. Show a passage in the Bible which says such a thing.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

 

[Dave L]

Can you see the spiritual kingdom? How? We know from His Letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation that there are many imposters in the visible churches. Can you see a "Christian" and know whether he/she is in the spiritual kingdom or not?

You look at the world and see confusion and misery. I look through the world and see Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of iron.

 

[Enoch111]

Which is probably the reason there is so much misinterpretation and misapplication of Israel in most doctrinal positions.

I would venture to say that an anti-Semitic bias came into existence after the dispersion of Israel in 70 AD. And it continued within the Catholic Church, but was not rejected by the Protestant Reformers (former Catholics). Thus Replacement Theology became the norm in Christendom, while the Jews were hounded and persecuted throughout Europe, culminating in the Final Solution of the Nazis, and their wholesale slaughter by the Soviets. The funny thing is that Karl Marx was a Jew. It is only after 1948 that Christians had to take note that there was once again a nation of Israel. But the Zionists rejected Christ and also any expectation of Messiah, therefore the anti-Israel bias continued.

One should also keep in mind that a very small cabal of extremely wealthy Jews (controlled by Satan) such as the Rothschilds have been manipulating world events for a very long time (and continue to do so, as in the case of George Soros, who is a former Nazi), and that has simply added to the hatred for Jews.

 

[Dave L]

I would venture to say that an anti-Semitic bias came into existence after the dispersion of Israel in 70 AD. And it continued within the Catholic Church, but was not rejected by the Protestant Reformers (former Catholics). Thus Replacement Theology became the norm in Christendom, while the Jews were hounded and persecuted throughout Europe, culminating in the Final Solution of the Nazis, and their wholesale slaughter by the Soviets. The funny thing is that Karl Marx was a Jew. It is only after 1948 that Christians had to take note that there was once again a nation of Israel. But the Zionists rejected Christ and also any expectation of Messiah, therefore the anti-Israel bias continued.

One should also keep in mind that a very small cabal of extremely wealthy Jews (controlled by Satan) such as the Rothschilds have been manipulating world events for a very long time (and continue to do so, as in the case of George Soros, who is a former Nazi, and that has simply added to the hatred for Jews.

You call taking a stand against false teaching Antisemitism because of a lack of understanding. Paul preached the same and he was a Jew.

 

[Enoch111]

I look through the world and see Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of iron.

Jesus is not presently ruling the nations with a rod of iron. That is delusional fantasy. If such were the case, there would be UNIVERSAL PEACE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS.

It is only AFTER the Second Coming of Christ that He will rule with a rod of iron. Indeed He will destroy all the kingdoms of this world, and establish His own Kingdom of God.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus is not presently ruling the nations with a rod of iron. That is delusional fantasy. If such were the case, there would be UNIVERSAL PEACE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS.

It is only AFTER the Second Coming of Christ that He will rule with a rod of iron. Indeed He will destroy all the kingdoms of this world, and establish His own Kingdom of God.

Is Jesus God? Then he rules the nations with a Rod of Iron ever snice he created them.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

Jesus clarified what He meant in verse 5--> "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of the water and the Spirit." You have misapplied verse 3.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

You look at the world and see confusion and misery. I look through the world and see Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of iron.

Not yet, you don't. That doesn't occur until His government is upon the earth. Not there yet--not by a long shot.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I would venture to say that an anti-Semitic bias came into existence after the dispersion of Israel in 70 AD. And it continued within the Catholic Church, but was not rejected by the Protestant Reformers (former Catholics). Thus Replacement Theology became the norm in Christendom, while the Jews were hounded and persecuted throughout Europe, culminating in the Final Solution of the Nazis, and their wholesale slaughter by the Soviets. The funny thing is that Karl Marx was a Jew. It is only after 1948 that Christians had to take note that there was once again a nation of Israel. But the Zionists rejected Christ and also any expectation of Messiah, therefore the anti-Israel bias continued.

One should also keep in mind that a very small cabal of extremely wealthy Jews (controlled by Satan) such as the Rothschilds have been manipulating world events for a very long time (and continue to do so, as in the case of George Soros, who is a former Nazi), and that has simply added to the hatred for Jews.

Agreed. Eighteen, Jewish Christian bishops were deliberately excluded from the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.. Anti-Jewish bias invaded the churches very early on.