Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Lady Crosstalk]

I would venture to say that an anti-Semitic bias came into existence after the dispersion of Israel in 70 AD. And it continued within the Catholic Church, but was not rejected by the Protestant Reformers (former Catholics). Thus Replacement Theology became the norm in Christendom, while the Jews were hounded and persecuted throughout Europe, culminating in the Final Solution of the Nazis, and their wholesale slaughter by the Soviets. The funny thing is that Karl Marx was a Jew. It is only after 1948 that Christians had to take note that there was once again a nation of Israel. But the Zionists rejected Christ and also any expectation of Messiah, therefore the anti-Israel bias continued.

One should also keep in mind that a very small cabal of extremely wealthy Jews (controlled by Satan) such as the Rothschilds have been manipulating world events for a very long time (and continue to do so, as in the case of George Soros, who is a former Nazi), and that has simply added to the hatred for Jews.

Did you know that Karl Marx was a Freemason, Enoch? He was an ethnic Jew but religiously, he worshiped Satan--there are quotes from him which indicate that he did. I believe Lenin was as well but I may be mistaken. Joseph Stalin was a Gentile but he was also a high level Freemason. At the higher echelons of Freemasonry (beyond the 33rd Degree) they worship Lucifer (Satan) and Lucifer's plans (of course) are in direct contradiction to the plan of God. There are famous photographic portraits of both Marx and Stalin with their hands inside their jackets--that indicates that they are in the higher levels of Freemasonry. Interestingly, there are photographic portraits of famous Jesuits (like Teilhard de Chardin) who also show the sign of Freemasonry. Freemasonry has always been in opposition to real, Biblical Christianity. The book, In the Minds of Men by Ian Taylor details Freemasonry's connection to the promotion of the Theory of Evolution in contradiction to the Scriptures. I think it is out of print but your library may be able to get you a copy on inter-library loan.

 

[Copperhead]

And I believe it was the Bar Kokhba revolt of 135AD that sealed the deal when it came to the "church" distancing itself from its Hebrew roots.

 

[Enoch111]

Did you know that Karl Marx was a Freemason, Enoch?

Well I have a book titled "Karl Marx was a Satanist". So was Hitler. So was Stalin.

 

[Enoch111]

Is Jesus God? Then he rules the nations with a Rod of Iron ever snice he created them.

Obviously you do not really want to understand what the Bible says, and you stubbornly persist in your errors. Which means that yours is a hopeless case.

We are told that Satan is the god of this world, and that the whole world lieth in wickedness. Therefore Satan could say this to Christ: Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. (Mt 4:8,9)

Now if God was already ruling this world with a rod of iron, none of these things would be in the Bible. However that will indeed be the case IN THE FUTURE, when Christ rules with a rod of iron (absolute control).

REVELATION 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I would venture to say that an anti-Semitic bias came into existence after the dispersion of Israel in 70 AD. And it continued within the Catholic Church, but was not rejected by the Protestant Reformers (former Catholics). Thus Replacement Theology became the norm in Christendom, while the Jews were hounded and persecuted throughout Europe, culminating in the Final Solution of the Nazis, and their wholesale slaughter by the Soviets. The funny thing is that Karl Marx was a Jew. It is only after 1948 that Christians had to take note that there was once again a nation of Israel. But the Zionists rejected Christ and also any expectation of Messiah, therefore the anti-Israel bias continued.

One should also keep in mind that a very small cabal of extremely wealthy Jews (controlled by Satan) such as the Rothschilds have been manipulating world events for a very long time (and continue to do so, as in the case of George Soros, who is a former Nazi), and that has simply added to the hatred for Jews.

I believe the RCC calls their version of Replacement Theology, "Dominion Theology" but it amounts to the same thing. There are a lot of "christians" into Dominion Theology these days--nasty stuff.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Well I have a book titled "Karl Marx was a Satanist". So was Hitler. So was Stalin.

Yes, all high level Freemasons worship "Lucifer" (AKA Satan). They will deny it but they are, in fact, Satanists. As was the more modern-day, Saul Alinsky--a "communist" on whom Hillary Clinton did her senior thesis at Wellesley College. She corresponded with him regularly. He dedicated his book, Rules for Radicals to "Lucifer".

 

[Copperhead]

I believe the RCC calls their version of Replacement Theology, "Dominion Theology" but it amounts to the same thing. There are a lot of "christians" into Dominion Theology these days--nasty stuff.

Yeah, it goes by different names but similar theology. Dominion Theology, Kingdom Now Theology, Replacement Theology, etc.

 

[Davy]

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? But, point of fact is, verse 28 only brings us full circle and doesn't weigh into the timing or the chronology of things.

I don't think it, I know you're purposefully leaving off the rest of Apostle Paul's Message in those 1 Cor.15:26-28 verses.

You can't even get past the first phrase of 1 Cor.15:24 because of man's false doctrine of amillennialism that you hold to!

1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV

That last phrase in verse 24 in red sets a CONDITION for when Jesus delivers up the kingdom to God. And verse 25 is linked to it with the simple conjunction "For". The word "when" with what is said after it sets the time condition, and verse 25 is part of its fulfillment.

So it would appear you need to go back to school and learn some English grammar.

 

[Davy]

If anyone would like to try and explain or interpret this, because I surely can't unravel it.
CH seems to have a different Bible to me, one that has two people; the Church and Israel, with different destinies. My Bible says in many scriptures that there is only one people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6, John 17:20-23, +

They aren't listening to God's Holy Writ, which is why they won't listen to us. They are 'drunken' on men's doctrines, and boy do they love it!

 

[Davy]

Sure: Revelation 13 says the First Beast will rise up as a religio-political power, but receive a deadly wound, which will be healed, and then all the world will "wonder after the Beast". That Beast is the papacy, according to the prophetic timeline that begins in Daniel and continues through Revelation. This interpretation was EXCLUSIVELY taught by Protestantism as sound Biblical exegesis for over THREE HUNDRED YEARS until just about 150 years ago Jesuit Futurism (which was formulated by the Jesuits to deflect the identity of the Antichrist away from the papacy because so many people were fleeing from it into Protestantism that the priests were running out of children to rape) began to spread throughout Protestantism and today most Protestants reject Historicism. A few of us here preach it faithfully, though.

You might want to rethink that idea about Jesuits starting the idea of Futurism. That's a bogus idea started by Satan's children, and I'm not a Catholic (my ancestors were French huguenots, or Protestants that were persecuted by the Catholic Church and had to flee to America).

The pope cannot be the final Antichrist. The Reformation thought the pope was Antichrist simply because of the Catholic persecutions that happened to Protestants. They actually had literal war against each other. The coming Antichrist/pseudo-Messiah has to have a Jewish origin. There is no way the orthodox Jews would recognize a pope as their expectant Messiah.

Revelation 13:11 forward is showing you the coming Antichrist, having two horns LIKE a lamb (The Lamb Slain), and speaking as a dragon, the "dragon" being Satan himself per Rev.12:9.

Our Lord Jesus actually lets the cat out of the bag about the identity of the coming Antichrist in Revelation 13:4...

Rev 13:4
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
KJV

As He showed us in Revelation 12:9, the "dragon" is just another title for Satan himself! Listen to Jesus Christ, not man.

 

[Davy]

Did you guys Actually Read Revelation, right? I need to talk to people that read Revelation. What about the 144,000 first sealed? OK first there's 7 Bowls and 7 Trumpets of judgment. Every bowl has a calamity, I believe. I Think that those living and Dead meeting Christ At That Time, well you skipped the Tribulation in that sense, if you're dead? There is a persecuted Church that faces a tribulation that is Then to Perservere and meet Christ. I do agree, the media is getting heavy and annoying about pre-trib, and then typically, not a sentence of scripture.

That the false pre-trib rapture doctrine would be a major deceptive doctrine in the last days was Old Testament Bible prophecy by God through His prophet Ezekiel.

Ezek 13:18-20
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
KJV


The prophet Ezekiel was mainly sent as a prophet to the "house of Israel" (Ezek.3). In Ezekiel's day, the ten tribe northern kingdom of the "house of Israel" had already been removed from the holy land by the kings of Assyria, to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. God translated Ezekiel from his house to among the ten tribes to give them His Message.

The ten lost tribes of the house of Israel would be further scattered west. The Jewish historian Josephus said they were still 'beyond Euphrates' in his day (100 A.D.) and were a great number, too many to count.

II Esdras speaks this about them:
39 And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him;
40 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.
41 But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.


ARZARETH:

By: Morris Jastrow, Jr., Kaufmann Kohler
"The name of the land beyond the great river, far away from the habitation of man, in which the Ten Tribes of Israel will dwell, observing the laws of Moses, until the time of the restoration, according to IV Esd. xiii. 45. Columbus identified America with this land. (See Kayserling's "Christopher Columbus," translated by Dr. C. Gross, p. 15.)

The name, it has been suggested by Schiller-Szinessy, is taken from Deut. xxix. 24-27, "Because they forsook the covenant of the Lord . . . and went and served other gods . . . the Lord rooted them out of their land . . . and cast them into another land [ereẓ aḦeret] as this day." This passage is made to refer (in Mishnah Sanh. x. 3) to the Ten Tribes (compare Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 12; Bab. ib. 110b; Yer. ib. x. 29c; Ab. R. N., ed. Schechter, A, xxxvi. 108, and Bacher, "Agada der Tannaiten," i. 143). But different opinions are expressed by Akiba and Eliezer—the traditions are rather confused as to the names—whether the Ten Tribes may be expected to return or not, since this point is not determined in the Scriptural verse. One of them takes the words "as this day" to signify that "as the day goeth, but doth not return, so shall they who are cast off not return"; the other explains the words: "as the day begins with the darkness of the night, but turns into day, so shall the darkness of their banishment be turned into bright daylight" (Mishnah Sanh. l.c.). The fourth Book of Esdras took the latter view, which was adopted also by R. Judah ha-Nasi in the Tosefta (l.c.), who refers to Isa. xxvii. 13."

Bibliography:

• Schiller-Szinessy, in Journal of Philology, iii. 114;
• Neubauer, Jew. Quart. Rev. i. 16.

My point concerning that history about Ezekiel being sent to the ten tribe house of Israel? Simple. The prophecy in Genesis 48 Jacob gave his grandson Ephraim was that his seed would become "a multitude of nations", and the first king of ten tribed Israel that God made was Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, as Ephraim became the head tribe over the ten northern tribes (see 1 Kings 11 forward, and Hosea). That "multitude of nations" represents the western Christian nations that Ephraim and the ten tribes would become, along with believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus in those new lands. Even with the old 'blue laws' in early America, everyone was required to appear at Church on Sunday, otherwise the law would come and take you.

So this Ezekiel 13 Message is about pastors in the Christian Church in the last days, as that is who God points this to with the "house of Israel" for the last days in the beginning of the chapter...

Ezek 13:1-5
13:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
KJV

What? To stand in the battle in the day of the LORD? The "day of the Lord" is about the last days, our days leading up to Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thess.5). That puts this Ezekiel 13 prophecy in perspective for the latter days, our days. And for those who think the ten tribes of Israel are really no more, they need to read what Jacob said to his twelve sons at the start of Genesis 49.

 

[Naomi25]

You are just having some fun with all of us... right?

Well I don't know...did you actually read my other posts and then consider 1 Cor 15? Honestly, the more I read it, the more I can't believe others miss the obviousness of it.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

And at the end of that 1000 year reign, Satan is again released to go deceive the nations.....

Revelation 20:7-8 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea

Okay...sure. So...what we have here is proof that a time period will happen where certain things will take place, yeah? People like to call it "the Millennium", obviously for the 1000 year reference, but past that obvious label which sometimes distracts, we can characterise this time period by the fact that Christ is reigning. Over what? A Kingdom? A people? A place? The Rev 20 passage tell us that those killed in the name of Christ, those who do not give in to "Antichrist", will 'come to life and rule and reign with Christ' during this 'Kingdom'.
It also tells us that during this time Satan is "bound from deceiving the nations".

Okay...so...given that Revelation is often not chronological, and is often symbolic in its use of imagry, most biblical scholars will tell you that the clear rule of thumb for interpreting less clear passages is to go to passages that are more clear. This is something that most scholars agree on, regardless of which school of thought they come from.

With that in mind, let's look at some other passages that speak of; the Kingdom, Christ's rule now, Christian's status in Christ now, and Satan's status now.

The Kingdom is now:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. -1 Corinthians 15:23–24

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. -Matthew 12:28

Christ rules now:

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. -1 Peter 3:22

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, -Philippians 2:9

Christian's status 'In Christ':

even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, -Ephesians 2:5–6

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, -Colossians 2:13

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. -John 5:24

Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. -Romans 6:13–14

For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.-2 Corinthians 4:11

and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, -2 Timothy 1:10

Satan is bound now:

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:28-29

The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. -Luke 10:17–19

So...what am I saying we can glean from all these verses? Especially in light of my previous posts regarding the timing laid out in 1 Cor 15.
* The Kingdom is now...this is because; Christ outright tells us in Matt 12:28, and Paul implies, through 1 Cor 15 and Eph 1:20 that the "ruling over powers, authorities and enemies" part of the "kingdom" has already been "checked off" as Christ sat down at the right hand of God.
*Christ clearly rules now. Too many verses teach this: he sits at God the Fathers right hand, has been bestowed the name above all names, has had all powers, names, authorities, etc, placed under his feet. To say this is anything BUT ruling and reigning is playing with the sense and meaning of it.
*Christians can see, again and again in scripture that in Christ, and through grace and salvation, we "come to life". We put death behind us and "are raised up and seated in the heavenly places with Christ". Now...I don't know about you, but that sounds darn close to "come to life and rule with Christ". As far as Rev 20 goes and why is focusing in on those specifically martryed....this is not a surprise. The whole book is written to be an encouragement to those crying out "How long O Lord!!? Til you avenge our blood?" It's a story of triumph, of the Lamb, and of those who give their lives for their Lord. But...this in no way suggests that we dismiss the rest of biblical doctrine that says that ALL Christians also "come to life and reign with Christ"...because that's exactly what it says. And it's what we do the moment we give our hearts and souls to him. Read Eph 2:5-6 again, and wonder at it!
*Satan is a present foe. No one doubts his taint on the world. But Rev 20 does not claim there will be a time where he will be bound from ALL activity upon the world. It says there will be a time where he will not be able to deveive the nations. What does this mean? It should bring something immediately to mind. Jesus tells us that Satan is the Father of Lies. Lies are his thing...decption his biggest weapon; it's what he used in the garden to start this whole mess. But what happened when Christ came that put a huge stumbling block in front of that main weapon? What is the opposite to deception? Truth! What is the truth? The gospel! Christ! Jesus tells his Disciples that at his coming he "bound the strongman" in order to plunder his house! And he tells them this in direct correspondence to talking about the coming of the Kingdom...to it's arrival! He also tells them, when they marvel at their authority over demons that he saw Satan 'fall', and that he has given them authority! This is what Satan being "bound" means. The gospel has been free to go to all Nations, just as Christ sent us. No matter the hate that stands in our way, Satan has not yet managed to "gather the nations together for war" against the Saints. You can bet he's wanted to. You can bet he's tried.

Psalms 2:1-3 Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.

The nations, at the provocation of the released Satan, will want to throw off the rule of Messiah.

If one studies the Kingdom Parables of Matthew 13, one will see that the kingdom is not a perfect place, at least when it comes to the heart of man. There will be sin, death, and Yeshua will need to rule with a rod of iron to deal with anyone or any nation getting out of line. Zechariah 14 supports this also.

Hmm...sin, death. So...it's almost like now, then?

 

[Naomi25]

I don't think it, I know you're purposefully leaving off the rest of Apostle Paul's Message in those 1 Cor.15:26-28 verses.

You can't even get past the first phrase of 1 Cor.15:24 because of man's false doctrine of amillennialism that you hold to!

1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV

That last phrase in verse 24 in red sets a CONDITION for when Jesus delivers up the kingdom to God. And verse 25 is linked to it with the simple conjunction "For". The word "when" with what is said after it sets the time condition, and verse 25 is part of its fulfillment.

So it would appear you need to go back to school and learn some English grammar.

If I'm so stupid, you tell me exactly how verse 28 changes the time, order or grammer of the issue. I notice you don't mention it above. Could it be that it doesn't?
And it's all well and good to say that the RED sets a condition for when Christ delievers the Kingdom, but you seem to conveniently forget other scripture, which I would assume is more important that your highlighter pen.

If Eph 1:20 tell us that Christ is ALREADY ruling and reigning over all powers, names and authorities, then according to your very nifty red pen, all those things are already under his feet. God himself put them there when Christ sat down at his right hand:

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. -1 Peter 3:22

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, -Philippians 2:9


So...if all these things are ALREADY at his feet, according to 1 Cor 15:25, this means he is reigning NOW..."he must reign until he has put ALL his enemies at his feet...." That "until" is going on as we speak because death is still present, all other powers and names are already defeated. The last thing that has to happen for the Kingdom to be "handed over" is given to us in v26: the last enemy is death. Clearly death is still an issue. And when do we see that being defeated? V 50-55 tell us that death is defeated when we recieve our resurrection bodies, which, again, we know happens when Christ returns (V 23).

So, red highlighter pen aside, it still does't change the fact that these powers are under his feet at present. That changes the scope of it all just a little.

 

[Dave L]

Obviously you do not really want to understand what the Bible says, and you stubbornly persist in your errors. Which means that yours is a hopeless case.

We are told that Satan is the god of this world, and that the whole world lieth in wickedness. Therefore Satan could say this to Christ: Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. (Mt 4:8,9)

Now if God was already ruling this world with a rod of iron, none of these things would be in the Bible. However that will indeed be the case IN THE FUTURE, when Christ rules with a rod of iron (absolute control).

REVELATION 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

You are forcing scripture to fit your artificial frame work called Dispensationalism. It does not come from scripture. It is purely and sinfully man made. And you rewrite scripture and add to Revelation by using it.

 

[Phoneman777]

You will simply be unable to fit your flawed concept into Revelation 13.

There may be some superficial resemblances to the Antichrist, but the Vatican has never actually controlled all the economic transactions of all the people around the world, with a demand to take a Mark on the right hand or on the forehead upon pain of death.

There's nothing in Revelation 13 which demands the papacy must now in 2019 have already attained to the point at which "all the world wondered after the beast".

As I said, the papacy received a deadly wound in 1798 when it was dissolved and the wound began healing in 1929 when the papal states were returned by Mussolini..and when that wound is fully healed - which will be soon - then will come to pass the prophecy "all the world wondered after the Beast".

 

[Phoneman777]

No it is not subjective that two witnesses, minimum, is required to establish a matter.

Deuteronomy states in a number of places that a matter can only be established on the testimony of two or more witnesses. The Bereans affirmed that standard and showed how it is applied to doctrine. They listened to what Paul taught them (which later would make up a good portion of the NT), and they searched to scripture (the OT which is all they had) to see if what Paul taught them was true. So therefore, for any matter of doctrine to be established, it must be confirmed on the testimony of the two witnesses... the OT and the NT.

I realize that sets the bar high that most would like, but then, matters of doctrine require a high standard of affirmation. And the standard was commended by the Holy Spirit in Acts 17. That makes it non subjective in my book. And it makes life so much simpler for the serious believer. If eliminates a lot of wild stuff that gets tossed around as doctrine based on a couple of cherry picked verses.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that both OT and NT evidence must exist for a thing to be established?

 

[Phoneman777]

I do believe it was for a far more nobler purpose than most of what we have gotten into ever since. And if you lived thru the riots, revolts, protests, etc that went on the 60's and 70's during the VN war, one would be hard pressed to make the argument that our culture was fascinated with the violence of the war. I clearly remember the Democrat Convention of '68 in Chicago, the college campus protests, etc. And how we as veterans were despised when we returned and many of us kept our service as best a secret as we could. No one dared wear a uniform off base during that time.

But as soon as the 60's faded, American pride reemerged and by the end of the 80s we were proud victors of the Cold War - when I got back from the Gulf in '93, there were thousands and thousands in Mayport waiting for us when we pulled into port and disembarked. It was really awesome.

 

[Phoneman777]

You might want to rethink that idea about Jesuits starting the idea of Futurism. That's a bogus idea started by Satan's children, and I'm not a Catholic (my ancestors were French huguenots, or Protestants that were persecuted by the Catholic Church and had to flee to America).

Wow, I've never met a descendant of the Huguenots! They of old would tell you that Futurism came straight out of Rome. No record of anyone teaching Futurism before the 16th century.

The pope cannot be the final Antichrist.

To be clear, Historicism doesn't actually teach "the pope is the Antichrist"; it says "the office of the papacy is the Antichrist". The Antichrist is not a single man but a "beast", or kingdom, over which many men have ruled.

The Reformation thought the pope was Antichrist simply because of the Catholic persecutions that happened to Protestants. They actually had literal war against each other. The coming Antichrist/pseudo-Messiah has to have a Jewish origin. There is no way the orthodox Jews would recognize a pope as their expectant Messiah.

No, there was much more to it than just prejudices involved. The Reformers proved from Scripture irrefutably that the Antichrist is the office of the papacy. Many infallible proofs. Good ol' Spurgeon said this:

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is, no sane man ought to raise the question. If it be not the popery in Rome, there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name."
​

Revelation 13:11 forward is showing you the coming Antichrist, having two horns LIKE a lamb (The Lamb Slain), and speaking as a dragon, the "dragon" being Satan himself per Rev.12:9.

The Antichrist is the First Beast and verse 11 forward is describing the Second Beast, the U.S., which will end up forcing the entire world to bow down and worship Rome.

 

[Davy]

Wow, I've never met a descendant of the Huguenots! They of old would tell you that Futurism came straight out of Rome. No record of anyone teaching Futurism before the 16th century.
To be clear, Historicism doesn't actually teach "the pope is the Antichrist"; it says "the office of the papacy is the Antichrist". The Antichrist is not a single man but a "beast", or kingdom, over which many men have ruled.
No, there was much more to it than just prejudices involved. The Reformers proved from Scripture irrefutably that the Antichrist is the office of the papacy. Many infallible proofs. Good ol' Spurgeon said this:

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is, no sane man ought to raise the question. If it be not the popery in Rome, there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name."
​

The Antichrist is the First Beast and verse 11 forward is describing the Second Beast, the U.S., which will end up forcing the entire world to bow down and worship Rome.

I really don't do seminary doctrines of men, and that's mostly where you're coming from. They create tethers to keep you on their doctrines and explanations. God's Word goes way beyond that kind of thinking.

This is the 21st century, so if my Hugeunot ancestors were still alive today, they would agree the OFFICE of pope even is not the Antichrist.

The definition of "antichrist" is given in 1 John 2:18, but not only there. Apostle John spoke of both a singular entity as an "antichrist" in that verse, and also the idea of there being "many antichrists" already. So please don't insult my intelligence by trying to push a lie that John wasn't speaking of a singular antichrist entity that those brethren had already heard shall come.

1 John 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

If you don't already know where they had already heard that antichrist shall come, then no amount of trying to point it out to you is going to help you, not so long as you allow men's doctrine to tell you what to believe on this instead.

 

[n2thelight]

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. -Jude 7

Is that fire still burning ?