Obedience to what?

[FHII]

In various discussions about Grace through Faith vs. the law, I have taken the stance of Grace through faith. I see faith and works and the Law as incompatible. Very few, if any will come against faith completely. With good reason: It's clearly stated! But some (despite the objections of Paul) still believe Grace through faith must be accompanied with works (to the delight of James).

Still, some hold to the law in various ways. They point out that obedience is needed. Just for an example, they might point out that Peter said we ought to obey God rather then men (Acts 5:29). They hold fast to whatever portions of the law they see fit and point to the many verses that talk about obedience in the NT.

I am all for obedience. Yes, we must obey God. The problem I have is with the idea that we must obey the law and/or do works to be obedient.

I looked at biblehub's timeline of Biblical history. It starts around 4000 BC . The Law was in effect from 1440 BC to around 30 to 50 AD. that's 1500 years out of 6000!

Regardless of whether the timeline is accurate, the Law was not in effect for nearly 2/3 of Bible history.

So let's get back to obedience. Are we supposed to be obedient to the Law, which has clearly been abolished and done away with, or are we to be obedient to faith, which ruled the other 2/3rds of the time?

Yet I see people running back to the Law and not grace through faith.

I have no problem with folks following the law, if it's under the thought that all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. But for those of us who think be must obey the Law.... I ask, is that really being obedient when Jesus Asked for something different.

He asked for faith.

 

[Helen]

I am just posting a one liner to get this into my Alerts
I want to come back to it tomorrow...I am closing down now for the night.
This looks interesting..( hope everyone can post in discussion mode, and not aggressive debate mode. :) )

 

[Helen]

Glad that you gave me a like there...it was the only thing which showed up in my Alerts. Or I would never have found this again.

I Agree,

I just posted this over in the thread "Luke 16 Rich man in hell .." ( which he wasn't, no one is in hell yet because the day of judgement has not yet come...)

..but anyway...I just posted this...you can yea it or nay it :)

Quote:-
Jesus plucked the ears of corn when He was hungry, .."they" condemned Him for not 'keeping the law' of keeping the Sabbath holy.

Jesus saw beyond the letter of the law -" The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

David saw beyond the law... when hungry, he went into the Holy Place and took the shew bread for his troops because they were hungry.

Many today would still put the binders of the law upon God's people..they can see no further than just the letter of the law.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In various discussions about Grace through Faith vs. the law, I have taken the stance of Grace through faith. I see faith and works and the Law as incompatible. Very few, if any will come against faith completely. With good reason: It's clearly stated! But some (despite the objections of Paul) still believe Grace through faith must be accompanied with works (to the delight of James).

Still, some hold to the law in various ways. They point out that obedience is needed. Just for an example, they might point out that Peter said we ought to obey God rather then men (Acts 5:29). They hold fast to whatever portions of the law they see fit and point to the many verses that talk about obedience in the NT.

I am all for obedience. Yes, we must obey God. The problem I have is with the idea that we must obey the law and/or do works to be obedient.

I looked at biblehub's timeline of Biblical history. It starts around 4000 BC . The Law was in effect from 1440 BC to around 30 to 50 AD. that's 1500 years out of 6000!

Regardless of whether the timeline is accurate, the Law was not in effect for nearly 2/3 of Bible history.

So let's get back to obedience. Are we supposed to be obedient to the Law, which has clearly been abolished and done away with, or are we to be obedient to faith, which ruled the other 2/3rds of the time?

Yet I see people running back to the Law and not grace through faith.

I have no problem with folks following the law, if it's under the thought that all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. But for those of us who think be must obey the Law.... I ask, is that really being obedient when Jesus Asked for something different.

He asked for faith.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

“...became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” There is depth there in all the times He said to let him who follows pick up his cross and deny himself. He said His sheep know His voice and will not follow after another Jesus. He said they who hear His voice (the Shepherds) would follow after His voice and where are they following if not into death of the cross. Isn’t the following of Him who calls to “...became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

Hebrews 9:14-17
[14] How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [16] For where a testament is , there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Episkopos]

God's law: God is love. As such His commands reflect His nature. If we love then we fulfill the law of God. Against love there is no law.

The law of Moses: Usually means the laws pertaining to temple holiness. Things like sacrificing the right things at the right time. Being ceremonially clean....pure. Able to enter into the temple through religious rites. Forgiveness of sins through blood atonement.

The law of righteousness: This entails doing what is right...treating others as you would want to be treated. Being honest in your failings and turning from wickedness....making restitution for the wrongs you have done. Doing all in your own power to obey God and His commands.

Works of the law: Judaism. (Circumcision, dietary laws, sabbath keeping...etc)

The law of sin and death: The soul that sins it shall die. This is the power that keeps the flesh in the bondage of sin. It is based in the nature of fallen man. It is based on the power of death in our members. It is sin in us.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ: This is the grace to walk as Jesus walked in the Spirit. This law is more powerful than the law of sin and death....just as the law of flight overcomes the law of gravity. The spiritual dimension of being taken up (translated) to Zion to walk in the presence of God.

The law of faith: Our own faith leads to our own righteousness. The faith OF Jesus brings us to the righteousness OF God. For the righteousness to be of God, the faith must be of Christ. This law takes us to the higher law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

 

[Helen]

So let's get back to obedience. Are we supposed to be obedient to the Law, which has clearly been abolished and done away with, or are we to be obedient to faith, which ruled the other 2/3rds of the time?

Yet I see people running back to the Law and not grace through faith.

Agree.

I believe that our Father is just that, our Father, and a Father speaks to His children. We are told via David and all through, to follow close to Him.

Jesus said "My sheep hear My voice and the Stranger they will not follow."

In thus day and age...that is what should be all important to us.
Hearing His Voice and following His direction. Nothing to do with the Law of Moses at all.

 

[Enoch111]

The problem I have is with the idea that we must obey the law and/or do works to be obedient

Obedience means obedience to the Ten Commandments through the Law of Christ, the Law of Liberty, or the Law of Love. That obedience will definitely result in good works. So what exactly is your problem?

 

[Helen]

Obedience means obedience to the Ten Commandments through the Law of Christ, the Law of Liberty, or the Law of Love. That obedience will definitely result in good works. So what exactly is your problem?

My fellow Canadian

Why do you so very often 'come across' as snarfy ?
It is a pity , because I know you do have a nice relaxed sense of humour.

 

[aspen]

In various discussions about Grace through Faith vs. the law, I have taken the stance of Grace through faith. I see faith and works and the Law as incompatible. Very few, if any will come against faith completely. With good reason: It's clearly stated! But some (despite the objections of Paul) still believe Grace through faith must be accompanied with works (to the delight of James).

Still, some hold to the law in various ways. They point out that obedience is needed. Just for an example, they might point out that Peter said we ought to obey God rather then men (Acts 5:29). They hold fast to whatever portions of the law they see fit and point to the many verses that talk about obedience in the NT.

I am all for obedience. Yes, we must obey God. The problem I have is with the idea that we must obey the law and/or do works to be obedient.

I looked at biblehub's timeline of Biblical history. It starts around 4000 BC . The Law was in effect from 1440 BC to around 30 to 50 AD. that's 1500 years out of 6000!

Regardless of whether the timeline is accurate, the Law was not in effect for nearly 2/3 of Bible history.

So let's get back to obedience. Are we supposed to be obedient to the Law, which has clearly been abolished and done away with, or are we to be obedient to faith, which ruled the other 2/3rds of the time?

Yet I see people running back to the Law and not grace through faith.

I have no problem with folks following the law, if it's under the thought that all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. But for those of us who think be must obey the Law.... I ask, is that really being obedient when Jesus Asked for something different.

He asked for faith.

Can you really separate faith and works? Seems to me that loving neighbor through service cuts across the false dualism. Perhaps Paul separates the two in order to illustrate the hollow nature of working for salvation with resentment and false pride, which had become rampant within Jewish converts and maybe some pagan converts? In fact, I suspect that false works and false faith are the only two habits that stand alone.

 

[aspen]

My fellow Canadian

Why do you so very often 'come across' as snarfy ?
It is a pity , because I know you do have a nice relaxed sense of humour.

“Snarf!”.....”snarf, snarf!”.........”SNARF!!”

Wow...I love that word

Hah

 

[marks]

Jesus saw beyond the letter of the law -" The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

This is a terrific question (OP)!

On this thought, Jesus went further, He said, therefore . . . for this reason . . . because the sabbath was made for man, the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath. The sabbath is what Jesus says it is, and He say this or that because Jesus is in charge of what is best for us.

Jesus is our High Priest, and He's the One Who decides what's right for me.

Jesus knew the disciples needed to eat, and provided for them.

Jesus is in charge of what is best for us, and He gives us His live to live in us, and life is what He wants to make it. We can resist Him, but I don't decide what is good for me, Jesus does. Jesus decides what I am to do.

Obedience to what Jesus wants for me.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Enoch111]

Why do you so very often 'come across' as snarfy ?

How did you arrive at this from my post? I asked a straightforward question.

And it is not snarfy but snarky. It might be time to get a little snarky with some of the posters.

 

[Nancy]

My fellow Canadian

Why do you so very often 'come across' as snarfy ?
It is a pity , because I know you do have a nice relaxed sense of humour.

He's moody.

 

[Nancy]

How did you arrive at this from my post? I asked a straightforward question.

And it is not snarfy but snarky. It might be time to get a little snarky with some of the posters.

I didn't have the heart to tell ByGrace about the "snark" thing...Lol. But she's right! You can come off as a bit snarky, lol...but you are quick to make me laugh with your witty comebacks :)

 

[FHII]

Obedience means obedience to the Ten Commandments through the Law of Christ, the Law of Liberty, or the Law of Love. That obedience will definitely result in good works. So what exactly is your problem?

The problem I have is with the idea that we must obey the law and/or do works to be obedient.

 

[FHII]

Can you really separate faith and works? Seems to me that loving neighbor through service cuts across the false dualism. Perhaps Paul separates the two in order to illustrate the hollow nature of working for salvation with resentment and false pride, which had become rampant within Jewish converts and maybe some pagan converts? In fact, I suspect that false works and false faith are the only two habits that stand alone.

That's some interesting stuff, Aspen. I think we better separate them as Paul said they don't mix.

 

[FHII]

Here is another example of what I am getting at:

1 John 3:22 KJV
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Here is where some people may immediately think John is speaking of the 10 Commandments or the rest of God's Law (AKA The Law of Moses). The problem is that in the next verse John tells exactly what the Commandments are:

1 John 3:23 KJV
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

In short, like "being obedient", keeping his commandments does not mean keeping the Law of the OT.

 

[aspen]

Here is another example of what I am getting at:

1 John 3:22 KJV
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Here is where some people may immediately think John is speaking of the 10 Commandments or the rest of God's Law (AKA The Law of Moses). The problem is that in the next verse John tells exactly what the Commandments are:

1 John 3:23 KJV
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

In short, like "being obedient", keeping his commandments does not mean keeping the Law of the OT.

Well, love is referred to as the sum of the law
So, obeying Christ by loving God and neighbor is technically, following the law of Moses

 

[Enoch111]

The problem I have is with the idea that we must obey the law and/or do works to be obedient.

Well the Scriptures should settle that issue, and we are not talking about the 613 commandments in the Torah (even though eventually they all express either love to God or love to neighbor).

1. ROMANS 13: LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So no Christian should have a problem with this, especially since love is a COMMANDMENT of Christ, and commandments are to be obeyed.

2. As to good works, that is what Christians are ordained for:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Tit 2:14)
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (Jas 1:27)
JAMES 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[Naomi25]

Can you really separate faith and works? Seems to me that loving neighbor through service cuts across the false dualism. Perhaps Paul separates the two in order to illustrate the hollow nature of working for salvation with resentment and false pride, which had become rampant within Jewish converts and maybe some pagan converts? In fact, I suspect that false works and false faith are the only two habits that stand alone.

But...you are exactly right, aspen...they cannot be separated. Separated in terms of what brings salvation, yes, but when we look at the outworking of that salvation? James tells us that they must be twinned together, or else the first did not really bring new life.

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. -James 2:17–18

Salvation by faith alone is necessary so we cannot boast. But if we do not walk IN that faith with works, then how do we claim a legitimate faith; one borne from love and gratitude? Any true faith needs to motivate us to acts of love and servanthood, just like our Saviour. Anything else is just fluff.