For Vince: Progressive Revelation on Slavery, Violence and War, Eternal Damnaton, etc.

[Berserk]

Jesus teaches, "I have come not to abolish (the Law of Moses), but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17)." What does Jesus mean by "fulfill?" To the degree that the Law's many regulations can be used in the service of the Golden Rule, they remain valid: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 7:12)."
But to the degree that the Law of Moses fails to serve the Golden Rule, it no longer applies and needs correction. In His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus repeatedly uses the phrase, "You have heard that it was said (often citing the Old Testament), but I say to you," to clarify these corrections. Paul takes this one step further by declaring, "Christ is the end of the Law [of Moses] for righteousness for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4)." From now on, the Law of Moses continues to be applicable only if it serves the Gospel of grace.

These points form the foundation of "progressive revelation." The reality of progressive revelation raises 2 issues that will be treated in my later posts: (1) How does Jesus justify negating specific teachings in the Pentateuch? (2) In what sense did God originally authorize the now obsolete revelation in the Pentateuch?

1. JESUS AND ST. PAUL ON SLAVERY

Jesus is crucified as a messianic radical and lacks the political power to implement His compassionate social program, which includes release from slavery:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me...He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives...to let the oppressed go free (Luke 4:18-19, quoting Isaiah 61:1-2)."

In its original meaning, the Lord's prayer calls for release from debt slavery as an act of gratitude for God's release of our debt incurred by our sin:

"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive [release] our debtors (Matthew 6:12; Luke 11:4)."

Jesus' point is illustrated in His parable about a slave whose great debt is forgiven: "And out of pity for him the lord of that slave released him and forgave that debt (Matthew 18:27)."
In the parable, the slave who has his debt cancelled is then punished because he refuses to release a fellow slave from a debt owed him.

Paul implements Jesus' anti-slavery position as best he can, but we must remember that Christians are a small persecuted group in the first century and lack the political power to fully implement their egalitarian Christian program. For Paul, baptism symbolizes our status as mini-Christs in the sense that we now all wear Christ like a garment. Among other things, this means the abolition of slavery as an inferior status and equal treatment in the church:
"As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, slave or free, male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:27-28)."

The practical application of this teaching is demonstrated by Paul's letter to Philemon, the owner of the runaway slave, Onesimus. Paul needs to send Onesimus home in the hope that Philemon will grant him manumission from slavery, but there is a problem: Onesimus may have run away because he has wronged or stolen from Philemon, thus angering him enough to punish his slave. Paul wants Philemon to forgive his slave and offers to pay for any debt that Onesimus has incurred by stealing from him (Philemon 19). Paul appeals for Onesimus's manumission on the grounds that he has converted him and been well served by him while Paul is in prison:

"Perhaps this is the reason he [Onesimus] was separated from you for a while, so that you might have him back forever, no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother--especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord...Confident in your obedience, I am writing to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say (Philemon 15-16, 21)."
"

 

[Vince]

Jesus teaches, "I have come not to abolish (the Law of Moses), but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17)." What does Jesus mean by "fulfill?" To the degree that the Law's many regulations can be used in the service of the Golden Rule, they remain valid: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 7:12)."
But to the degree that the Law of Moses fails to serve the Golden Rule, it no longer applies and needs correction. In His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus repeatedly uses the phrase, "You have heard that it was said (often citing the Old Testament), but I say to you," to clarify these corrections. Paul takes this one step further by declaring, "Christ is the end of the Law [of Moses] for righteousness for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4)." From now on, the Law of Moses continues to be applicable only if it serves the Gospel of grace.

These points form the foundation of "progressive revelation." The reality of progressive revelation raises 2 issues that will be treated in my later posts: (1) How does Jesus justify negating specific teachings in the Pentateuch? (2) In what sense did God originally authorize the now obsolete revelation in the Pentateuch?

1. JESUS AND ST. PAUL ON SLAVERY

Jesus is crucified as a messianic radical and lacks the political power to implement His compassionate social program, which includes release from slavery:

I do not expect that the tiny christian cult at the time could do anything about the practice of slavery. But they could have spoken out against it. Also, Was Jesus god? He performed many miracles but could not figure out how to end slavery? Maybe mention it once?

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me...He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives...to let the oppressed go free (Luke 4:18-19, quoting Isaiah 61:1-2)."

Which he did not do. He did set people free from sin which was his reason for coming not to end slavery. Many commentaries make this point that he is talking about sin not slavery.

In its original meaning, the Lord's prayer calls for release from debt slavery as an act of gratitude for God's release of our debt incurred by our sin:

"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive [release] our debtors (Matthew 6:12; Luke 11:4)."

You are going to have to show that the word opheílēma and opheilétēs are talking about slavery and not a sin debt as it is defined and as most commentaries describe.

Jesus' point is illustrated in His parable about a slave whose great debt is forgiven: "And out of pity for him the lord of that slave released him and forgave that debt (Matthew 18:27)."
In the parable, the slave who has his debt cancelled is then punished because he refuses to release a fellow slave from a debt owed him.

The Greek word doulos has been discussed in length by scholars as to what it means in the NT. It can mean slave, but it means a slave that has no rights whatsoever. That is not what the slaves in the NT were in the context of this passage. This is why the word is translated as servant of some sort instead of slave because that is what it is being described as we would understand it today and what historians tell us about the practices at the time in this passage. There were certainly slaves of the kind that had no right and money and were sole property of teh Owner such as Onesimus.

This parable seems clear that the debt was money as it actually says in the parable and not a slave relationship. The parable is about how god has forgiven our sin which is a great debt we had so we need to forgive others sin against us. Making it about slavery needs more evidence on your part. God is saying if we don't forgive others sin against us he will not forgive our sin against him.

Paul implements Jesus' anti-slavery position as best he can, but we must remember that Christians are a small persecuted group in the first century and lack the political power to fully implement their egalitarian Christian program.

My beef is not that they could not end slavery but that they never spoke against it. Paul institutionalized it and never once said for a slave to try to free himself but to serve his owner as best he could.

For Paul, baptism symbolizes our status as mini-Christs in the sense that we now all wear Christ like a garment. Among other things, this means the abolition of slavery as an inferior status and equal treatment in the church:
"As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, slave or free, male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:27-28)."

People may all be equal in the kingdom of god but not in the society they live in. There were still slave and free people in society which Paul was not one. Where did Paul ever tell a slave to do whatever it takes to free himself from his master?

The practical application of this teaching is demonstrated by Paul's letter to Philemon, the owner of the runaway slave, Onesimus. Paul needs to send Onesimus home in the hope that Philemon will grant him manumission from slavery, but there is a problem: Onesimus may have run away because he has wronged or stolen from Philemon, thus angering him enough to punish his slave. Paul wants Philemon to forgive his slave and offers to pay for any debt that Onesimus has incurred by stealing from him (Philemon 19). Paul appeals for Onesimus's manumission on the grounds that he has converted him and been well served by him while Paul is in prison:

"Perhaps this is the reason he [Onesimus] was separated from you for a while, so that you might have him back forever, no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother--especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord...Confident in your obedience, I am writing to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say (Philemon 15-16, 21)."
"

Paul never said to Philemon to let Onesimus go. Also, he sent Onesimus back to be a slave and left it up to Philemon to decide what to do with him. Why did he just not tell Philemon that God is against slavery? And Paul's reason for asking this of Philemon is linked to Onesimus status as a fellow believer which seems imply that he does not think that believers should be slaves. Where does Paul ever condemn slavery for everyone else?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I do not expect that the tiny christian cult at the time could do anything about the practice of slavery. But they could have spoken out against it. Also, Was Jesus god? He performed many miracles but could not figure out how to end slavery? Maybe mention it once?

Confused when those who are against God speak of love and how they want it and how they seem to know love better than God. That “Christian cult” that followed Him, those few who did as He said not as the world said...did more to end slavery than any war has done. For real...God is not big enough or have the power or influence? People who come to the board against God seem to be saying they want love and patience and care for those weak and beaten down and rejected and despised and abused and enslaved ...yet when the Son of God fully displayed it, it is considered weakness and not the power of the world to come which Has already overcome this world.

1 Timothy 6:11-16
[11] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. [12] Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. [13] I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; [14] That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: [15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

What was His good confession? Obedience to Love even unto death.

Which he did not do. He did set people free from sin which was his reason for coming not to end slavery. Many commentaries make this point that he is talking about sin not slavery.

Sin is slavery. Look at The bondwoman...look at the bondage of corruption...

greed, lust, drunkenness over power, bitterness, fight and war for that highest position of authority and height before all men, arrogance, pride ...not a single one of those held any power over the Son of God. That IS freedom. They waited for a warrior to stomp His enemies...instead they got a Lamb. Are you disappointed He came in peace instead?

 

[Vince]

Confused when those who are against God speak of love and how they want it and how they seem to know love better than God.

I am not against god. I don't believe he exists. You believe that the bible is the word of god in some fashion, I am just asking why the bible does not condemn slavery in any way.

That “Christian cult” that followed Him, those few who did as He said not as the world said...did more to end slavery than any war has done. For real...God is not big enough or have the power or influence? People who come to the board against God seem to be saying they want love and patience and care for those weak and beaten down and rejected and despised and abused and enslaved ...yet when the Son of God fully displayed it, it is considered weakness and not the power of the world to come which Has already overcome this world.

I have not said anything like this.

1 Timothy 6:11-16
[11] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. [12] Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. [13] I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; [14] That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: [15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

What was His good confession? Obedience to Love even unto death.

Why is it when I talk to Christians about slavery in the Bible we end up talking about things tat re not related to the question?

Sin is slavery. Look at The bondwoman...look at the bondage of corruption...

Maybe but it is not the same as actual slavery? When were you physically beaten by god because of your sin? This is changing the definition of what I am talking about as slavery as described in the bible.

greed, lust, drunkenness over power, bitterness, fight and war for that highest position of authority and height before all men, arrogance, pride ...not a single one of those held any power over the Son of God. That IS freedom. They waited for a warrior to stomp His enemies...instead they got a Lamb. Are you disappointed He came in peace instead?

This has nothing to do with why god made up rules for the Hebrews to enslave another by force and give rules for brutally beating slaves.

 

[Berserk]

Vince: "I am not against god. I don't believe he exists. You believe that the bible is the word of god in some fashion,"

So why haven't you read and responded to my threads that demonstrate that God DOES exist?
Start with my thread on "My Life Journey" in the Testimonial section. Then read my thread "The Right Prayer Partner" and my thread "Great Historic Revivals," both in the Prayer section. Finally, read my thread "NDEs and ADCs " (Near-Death Experiences and After-Death Communication) in the Unorthodox Doctrine section. Be sure to watch the posted videos in that thread, especially the 2 on Shared Death Experiences and the one on atheist professor Howard Storm's NDE that converted him to become a Christian pastor! Do all of this and you will probably become a believer like the last Vince (another skeptic) with whom I conversed on a non-Christian site. Are you really a truth seeker? I will judge that by the extent to which you are willing to do research and engage in the difficult task of critical inquiry.

Vince: "I am just asking why the bible does not condemn slavery in any way."

And I have just demonstrated that it does,as Jesus and Paul demonstrate. Remember, the Gospels preserve only typical themes of Jesus's 3 1/2 year ministry. One of those themes is the need for a community that condemns slavery. Remember, too, that Jesus forfeited all His divine prerogatives to become fully human, including His omnipotence and omniscience. His primary mission was to die for our sins to rise again to demonstrate His divinity. If you wish, I can ground these claims in great biblical detail.

Vince: "Why is it when I talk to Christians about slavery in the Bible we end up talking about things tat re not related to the question?"
Because the answer to your question requires and thorough knowledge of how progressive revelation works and this in turn requires an understanding of Jesus' critique of the Penteteuch's laws.



Vince: "This has nothing to do with why god made up rules for the Hebrews to enslave another by force and give rules for brutally beating slaves."
God did not such thing. Stay tuned for my post in my Progressive Revelation thread that will explain in detail why I make this claim.

 

[Vince]

Vince: "I am not against god. I don't believe he exists. You believe that the bible is the word of god in some fashion,"

So why haven't you read and responded to my threads that demonstrate that God DOES exist?
Start with my thread on "My Life Journey" in the Testimonial section. Then read my thread "The Right Prayer Partner" and my thread "Great Historic Revivals," both in the Prayer section. Finally, read my thread "NDEs and ADCs " (Near-Death Experiences and After-Death Communication) in the Unorthodox Doctrine section. Be sure to watch the posted videos in that thread, especially the 2 on Shared Death Experiences and the one on atheist professor Howard Storm's NDE that converted him to become a Christian pastor! Do all of this and you will probably become a believer like the last Vince (another skeptic) with whom I conversed on a non-Christian site. Are you really a truth seeker? I will judge that by the extent to which you are willing to do research and engage in the difficult task of critical inquiry.

This site does not let me post in those sections.

Vince: "I am just asking why the bible does not condemn slavery in any way."

And I have just demonstrated that it does,as Jesus and Paul demonstrate. Remember, the Gospels preserve only typical themes of Jesus's 3 1/2 year ministry. One of those themes is the need for a community that condemns slavery. Remember, too, that Jesus forfeited all His divine prerogatives to become fully human, including His omnipotence and omniscience. His primary mission was to die for our sins to rise again to demonstrate His divinity. If you wish, I can ground these claims in great biblical detail.

Can you respond to my responses to your post on this?

Vince: "Why is it when I talk to Christians about slavery in the Bible we end up talking about things tat re not related to the question?"
Because the answer to your question requires and thorough knowledge of how progressive revelation works and this in turn requires an understanding of Jesus' critique of the Penteteuch's laws.

So God can say Don't murder, Don't lie, Don't steal but he cannot say Don't make slaves of one another? God can ban shellfish in one command but not slavery?

Vince: "This has nothing to do with why god made up rules for the Hebrews to enslave another by force and give rules for brutally beating slaves."
God did not such thing. Stay tuned for my post in my Progressive Revelation thread that will explain in detail why I make this claim.

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money." Exodus 21.

I will wait for your explanation.

 

[Berserk]

Vince: "This site does not let me post in those sections."

That's a lame excuse for not at least reading the threads and watching the videos. You could start new threads where you can post that react to my threads that confirm God's exisitence.
V

 

[Vince]

Vince: "This site does not let me post in those sections."

That's a lame excuse for not at least reading the threads and watching the videos. You could start new threads where you can post that react to my threads that confirm God's exisitence.
V

I don't mind looking at some of the content you described but I am not starting at zero. I was heavily into apologetics for some years as a christian and I have investigates some of this kind of information. Unless there is new information I am not too interested in going over it again. I will look at what you have posted and see if there are things that I have not looked into. Here is your testinony:

1) I was born and raised in the first Pentecostal church in Canada. I was born with congenital glaucoma in my right eye. My distraught parents were impressed by a famous faith healer named William Branham, who held healing crusades around North America. What set him apart was his clairvoyance. Before he laid hands on people, he accurately described one of their recent past experiences in awesome detail and he did the same for my parents. Mom and Dad were poor, but they spent their savings on a trip to Elgin, Illinois to bring me to a Branham crusade there. When I (age 3) finally made it onto the stage, Branham looked at my introductory note that said, "blind in the right eye," and shouted, "This boy is blind!" He then laid hands on my eyes and waved them in front of me. When I blinked, he yelled, "This little boy has been cured of blindness!" The huge crowd went wild but my parents were sick. Of course I blinked because I could see out of my good eye. This fraud devastated and disillusioned my parents. All this attention to getting me healed made me feel like they regretted my birth and ultimately created a deep desire in me to justify being born! It also sowed the seeds of a lifelong determination to discover whether miracles and divine healing were ever real and whether the Bible was trustworthy. God used those events to shape my calling in life.

(2) By the time I was 6 I had learned to hate church. There was no children's church or Sunday school for my age and Church bored me because I couldn't relate to much of the 1 1/2 hour services, especially the sermons. So I squirmed and protested in our pew and made myself a nuisance to my parents. My parents were weekly attenders, but one Sunday they stayed home for reasons I never understood. I suspect the nightmare of dealing with my hissyfits was part of the reason! I was so glad to escape church that sunny and clear July morning! God was the furthest thing from my mind. To celebrate I zoomed up and own the sidewalk to the ends of our block on my little tricycle.

Then I noticed the big new blue Chevy with huge tailfins parked behind the Jewish shoe store salesman's building. Evidently he had just waxed and polished it and it just glistened as it reflected the brilliant sunlight. To me it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen; so I constantly road back to it to stare in wonder. Once, when I returned, I had my first life-changing God moment. For some strange reason, my attention was directed to a patch of blue near the sun. As I gazed at it, wave after wave of liquid love surged through my being. Suddenly I became acutely aware of the presence of a God who loved me and I just basked in that love!

How did you know that this feeling was God?

I told my parents about my experience, but they didn't seem very interested. That all changed a few days later when neighbors came over to tell my parents how impressed they were that I was excitedly sharing my embryonic new faith with my playmates. I knew little about God and the Bible and I have always wondered what I was saying about God and my experience to my little playmates.

This experience didn't make me want to sit through church, though. Now Dad sang in the choir and my parents now let me sit by myself. This was fortunate because it allowed me to I sneak out of church to buy lifesavers at the little grocery store across the streets from the church. As I ate them, I browsed the comic books on the store shelves. The owner eventually got annoyed by my regular presence and shooed me out his store. So I ate my lifesavers outside and began to meditate on the meaning of my li

(3) At age 11, I realized that I should be baptized to please my parents and obey the Gospel. I had to attend a few preparatory catechetical classes and I was the only child among about 11 adult male candidates. The classes appalled me because the lecturer used poorly explained jargon like justification, propitiation, and sanctification which produceded excruciation in the mind of this young boy who couldn't grasp the meaning of these big words. Quoting Colossians 2:11 , the lecturer informed us that we needed to be "circumcised in spirit." That might have been helpful if I knew what physical circumcision was and if he explained this jargon.

I would be the last of the 12 to be baptized by immersion in a large tank behind the platform before a crowd of about 1,400 people. I was petrified because I learned I was expected to share a personal testimony in front of that huge crowd and because, blush, the bottom of my baptismal robe seemed to float up, exposing my nakedness! All the men gave a formulaic personal testimony that I can recite even today. Then I nervously waded out to the pastor and he asked me, "Donny, would you like to share a word for the Lord Jesus?" I shook my head in the negative. So the pastor continued, "OK, let me ask you some faith questions." I felt publicly humiliated as the only one not to share a testimony and at that point I just wanted to get this ordeal over with to please my parents.

But after the pastor dunked me, something amazing happened as I emerged from the water. I suddenly had a vision of Jesus, smiling at me, radiating love and conveying the feeling that He found my predicament rather amusing. I sensed His empathy for my confusion over all the poorly explained catechetical jargon and my groundless fear about my nakedness being exposed by the floating bottom of my robe. And years later when I became a theology professor, I reflected that Jesus must have found it amusing that a motormouth like me would be utterly tongue-tied at my youthful baptism. My first and only vision in my life transformed an unpleasant baptismal ordeal into one of the most sacred and treasured memories of my life!

How do you know this vision was of Jesus? Did you actually see him? How did you know that he was amused by your predicament?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am not against god. I don't believe he exists.

Then why come here?

I have not said anything like this.

I’m sorry maybe I blurred other similar post with yours and that wasn’t fair to you. But you did say “I do not expect that the tiny christian cult at the time could do anything about the practice of slavery.” Which I was responding to.

Why is it when I talk to Christians about slavery in the Bible we end up talking about things tat re not related to the question?

Because the two are interconnected.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Made subject to vanity by who? Just because God subjected it to vanity doesn’t mean God promotes vanity. Instead we are told God has His reason; subjecting the same in Hope. Slavery to own another person or to collect them does it not stem from vanity? God gathers to freedom and Liberty. I used to be offended in that the word seemed to promote collecting women as possessions or cattle but I was wrong and only saw through a lens of flesh. I was very offended. Slavery (physical) which you mentioned you want to talk about and not slavery to sin. I get it. Yet you should consider both physical slavery and spiritual slavery in what Jesus Christ sent back to John the Baptist in Luke 7:23 And blessed is he , whosoever shall not be offended in me.

John was held captive, in prison, about to have his head removed ...and here Christ was the One who came to set the captives free. You should not ignore the profound message of what was being stated in what Christ sent back to John. Tell John the blind see, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the leper is cleansed, the lame walk, the captives go free, and the gospel is preached to the poor. <<it is all Spiritual and so is setting the slave free. Yet you are offended that it is Spiritual and not literal. As John was held captive in prison sending message to The One who sets the captives free and received back “blessed is the one that is not offended” Jesus Christ stands before Pilate and makes a good confession in that the Son of God who is heir to all things and above all things, does the opposite of what man says He should have done. Pilate was not His master. The Father was His master. Don’t you get that? Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This has nothing to do with why god made up rules for the Hebrews to enslave another by force and give rules for brutally beating slaves.

You’d need to give the verses that offend you because I’m not sure which you are speaking of.

 

[Vince]

Then why come here?
I’m sorry maybe I blurred other similar post with yours and that wasn’t fair to you. But you did say “I do not expect that the tiny christian cult at the time could do anything about the practice of slavery.” Which I was responding to.

Ok, I maybe was confused.

Because the two are interconnected.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Made subject to vanity by who? Just because God subjected it to vanity doesn’t mean God promotes vanity. Instead we are told God has His reason; subjecting the same in Hope. Slavery to own another person or to collect them does it not stem from vanity? God gathers to freedom and Liberty. I used to be offended in that the word seemed to promote collecting women as possessions or cattle but I was wrong and only saw through a lens of flesh. I was very offended. Slavery (physical) which you mentioned you want to talk about and not slavery to sin. I get it. Yet you should consider both physical slavery and spiritual slavery in what Jesus Christ sent back to John the Baptist in Luke 7:23 And blessed is he , whosoever shall not be offended in me.

John was held captive, in prison, about to have his head removed ...and here Christ was the One who came to set the captives free. You should not ignore the profound message of what was being stated in what Christ sent back to John. Tell John the blind see, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the leper is cleansed, the lame walk, the captives go free, and the gospel is preached to the poor. <<it is all Spiritual and so is setting the slave free. Yet you are offended that it is Spiritual and not literal. As John was held captive in prison sending message to The One who sets the captives free and received back “blessed is the one that is not offended” Jesus Christ stands before Pilate and makes a good confession in that the Son of God who is heir to all things and above all things, does the opposite of what man says He should have done. Pilate was not His master. The Father was His master. Don’t you get that? Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So will you answer this question?

"Do you think it is moral of god to make a rule that Hebrew slave owners can beat their slaves with a rod as long as they don’t die within 1-2 days?"

You’d need to give the verses that offend you because I’m not sure which you are speaking of.

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money." Exodus 21.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money." Exodus 21.

Do you think it is moral of god to make a rule that Hebrew slave owners can beat their slaves with a rod as long as they don’t die within 1-2 days?"

No there is more there in your verse. (IMO)That is not what God is saying. No more than I think Proverbs 23:14-14 promotes beating your child with a rod so they won’t die. Yet man uses it as such saying God says to beat them with a rod and they won’t die. Can’t tell you how many bullies use that one as a weapon of destruction. Did God promote it? Could it be possible man read into it what he sees with eyes of flesh and not with the Spirit? Proverbs 23:13-14
[13] Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. [14] Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

And shall deliver his soul from hell. He won’t die and you shall deliver him from hell. Only One can do that. Hebrews 12:5-11 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: [6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? [8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. [9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us , and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. [11] Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

He teaches His children peaceable fruit. The verse you quoted used in man’s context ...is not peaceable fruit. In the same passage of the slave in Deuteronomy 19:19-21
[19] Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. [20] And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. [21] And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Which was supposed to be “so shall thou put the evil away from among you.” In treating others how you would want to be treated...Became cause for vengeance. Which He turned upside to their ways: Matthew 5:38-39 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Recommend the rest of that chapter)

The verse you quoted has to do with Christ. It has to do with peaceable fruit. No accident it speaks in days when He said He would restore the temple anew ; raising it back up in three days. God is not the enemy but vanity and the bondage of corruption is the enemy. I’m aware that may sound silly to you and I understand. But study Christ who was the express image of the One who sent Him...what did Christ teach?

 

[Vince]

No there is more there in your verse. (IMO)That is not what God is saying. No more than I think Proverbs 23:14-14 promotes beating your child with a rod so they won’t die. Yet man uses it as such saying God says to beat them with a rod and they won’t die. Can’t tell you how many bullies use that one as a weapon of destruction. Did God promote it? Could it be possible man read into it what he sees with eyes of flesh and not with the Spirit? Proverbs 23:13-14
[13] Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. [14] Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

And shall deliver his soul from hell. He won’t die and you shall deliver him from hell. Only One can do that. Hebrews 12:5-11 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: [6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? [8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. [9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us , and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. [11] Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

He teaches His children peaceable fruit. The verse you quoted used in man’s context ...is not peaceable fruit. In the same passage of the slave in Deuteronomy 19:19-21
[19] Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. [20] And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. [21] And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Which was supposed to be “so shall thou put the evil away from among you.” In treating others how you would want to be treated...Became cause for vengeance. Which He turned upside to their ways: Matthew 5:38-39 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Recommend the rest of that chapter)

The verse you quoted has to do with Christ. It has to do with peaceable fruit. No accident it speaks in days when He said He would restore the temple anew ; raising it back up in three days. God is not the enemy but vanity and the bondage of corruption is the enemy. I’m aware that may sound silly to you and I understand. But study Christ who was the express image of the One who sent Him...what did Christ teach?

So why didn't god just be more clear? He has watched slavery for the entirety of mankind and has done nothing about it. Why did god put that verse in the bible in the context of being a rule for actual slavery? This makes little sense in my opinion and I don't think you addressed Exodus 21. I will reread what you posted here and see if I can better understand what you are saying.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So why didn't god just be more clear? He has watched slavery for the entirety of mankind and has done nothing about it. Why did god put that verse in the bible in the context of being a rule for actual slavery? This makes little sense in my opinion and I don't think you addressed Exodus 21. I will reread what you posted here and see if I can better understand what you are saying.

I’m saying it is Spiritual. God is not evil. I’m not the one you need to tell you are offended. Tell the God you don’t believe in...you don’t see love in His word.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So why didn't god just be more clear?

Why is He hidden?
Proverbs 28:11-13
[11] The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out. [12] When righteous men do rejoice, there is great glory: but when the wicked rise, a man is hidden. [13] He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea , and things which are not, to bring to nought(nothing)things that are: [29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.

He is bringing those high things down. You just refuse to see it.

 

[Vince]

I’m saying it is Spiritual. God is not evil. I’m not the one you need to tell you are offended. Tell the God you don’t believe in...you don’t see love in His word.

I don't see any justification in the text to assume God is talking about spiritual things and neither do most of the scholars translating the scriptures.

 

[Vince]

Why is He hidden?
Proverbs 28:11-13
[11] The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out. [12] When righteous men do rejoice, there is great glory: but when the wicked rise, a man is hidden. [13] He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea , and things which are not, to bring to nought(nothing)things that are: [29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.

He is bringing those high things down. You just refuse to see it.

whatever, this is used as a get out of the conversation free card all the time. You and I are more clear about things in our lives at work and with the people we love. The most likely reason the bible is not clear is that the bible was written buy men over a long period of time.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

whatever, this is used as a get out of the conversation free card all the time. You and I are more clear about things in our lives at work and with the people we love. The most likely reason the bible is not clear is that the bible was written buy men over a long period of time.

I’m sorry I didn’t mean to use the get out of conversation free card. And I didn’t mean to imply you are wicked or anything. When I first started reading God’s Word ...all I was focused on was physical healing. For a long time I had index cards with verses that promised physical healing. One day I took one down and read it in the word and thought the healing He was speaking of was Spiritual. I ended up taking them all down and starting over. All I wanted from Him at that time was something physical and I found verses to support it. For some it may be money. Saying God promises to make us rich. Again...isn’t the promise Spiritual wealth. All I meant toward you was sometimes the truth is hidden until we are ready to see it. I’ve never spent much time in the passage you gave concerning slaves. One of mine that was offensive to me was where the woman had to come before a priest and kneel and drink bitter water that would make her thigh rot and her belly swell. Many others. I had to ask Him to help me where I was offended and He did. I also saw while I thought I needed physical healing ...what I really needed was Spiritual healing. If I come up with more on the passage you quoted I will come back. All I am saying it is Him you need to ask why those verses are there. He said “blessed is He who is not offended in Me.” Meaning ...ask Him.

 

[Vince]

I’m sorry I didn’t mean to use the get out of conversation free card. And I didn’t mean to imply you are wicked or anything. When I first started reading God’s Word ...all I was focused on was physical healing. For a long time I had index cards with verses that promised physical healing. One day I took one down and read it in the word and thought the healing He was speaking of was Spiritual. I ended up taking them all down and starting over. All I wanted from Him at that time was something physical and I found verses to support it. For some it may be money. Saying God promises to make us rich. Again...isn’t the promise Spiritual wealth. All I meant toward you was sometimes the truth is hidden until we are ready to see it. I’ve never spent much time in the passage you gave concerning slaves. One of mine that was offensive to me was where the woman had to come before a priest and kneel and drink bitter water that would make her thigh rot and her belly swell. Many others. I had to ask Him to help me where I was offended and He did. I also saw while I thought I needed physical healing ...what I really needed was Spiritual healing. If I come up with more on the passage you quoted I will come back. All I am saying it is Him you need to ask why those verses are there. He said “blessed is He who is not offended in Me.” Meaning ...ask Him.

I asked for many years. If god exists why di dhe not answer me?

Also, you said god showed you where you were offended. How did he do this?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I asked for many years. If god exists why di dhe not answer me?

Honestly, I don’t know why.

Also, you said god showed you where you were offended. How did he do this?

First past experiences had given me a lens through which I viewed all scripture. All I had heard in the Word was a male chauvinist bully who favored men over women. Who said He was for the poor and broken rejected and weak...yet I had received a message as God suppresses those He doesn’t like which man pointed to as my being one of them. A punisher. A God who seemed to need His ego stroked by cultish rituals and someone jumping through hoops to ever try to please Him. God healed the lens I’d been given that was a lie. The message changed when Christ became the lens through which I read (Hear)scripture. Still verses were offensive and I’d go to Him and ask. You may not believe it and that is ok but even if some time later after the question had been forgotten...He would answer the question. It might be a verse that cause me to remember the question and God would give a new perspective. He will allow sight from another angle, from higher without all the pain distorting it. Sometimes it is a person He speaks something through where, again what He says through that person changes the perspective. What if I told you verses can open or unlock and suddenly there is depth there that wasn’t there before? A new perspective. Has that ever happened to you in life when something or someone changes your perspective on things or a life experience and once the perspective is corrected a misunderstanding you had is clear for the first time and you are grateful because we will never see it the same again? You would never want to go back to the old perspective over the new perspective? If you line it up with His word consider He said to put your focus higher on things above..not minding earthly things but heavenly things? See even that can be distorted into earthly things are wrong but isn’t God telling us we need a new perspective: not a perspective from earth and that lens...but a perspective from heaven and that lens which is pure and undefined? Take 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

If the perspective you have of God does not line up with the above then you need a new perspective...you need a new lens through which you see and hear ...that new lens is the Spirit. Not the flesh. The flesh will deceive you. It deceived me. God can and will heal the lens. Again, “Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.” If your offensive slave verses do not fit Charity or Love...then you are viewing “slavery” with the flesh and not the Spirit. “blessed is he who is not offended in Me.” Meaning God wants you to move past being offended into a relationship that is near and not far off.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I asked for many years. If god exists why di dhe not answer me?

Also, you said god showed you where you were offended. How did he do this?

One last thing...others will happily give you a perspective but only God can give you a new one that is whole.

1 Peter 3:7
[7] Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

I’d been told my whole life being the weak vessel is something derogatory or to be ashamed of. But the Word actually says it is an Honour to be a weak vessel because it is when one is weak that God’s power rests upon them. It is blessing to be a weak vessel...not a curse. Christ bestowed Honour unto His weaker vessel which is of His body.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10
[9] And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. [10] Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.