Convince me of Annihilationism

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bbyrd009

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(of future)
  1. for ever, always
  2. continuous existence, perpetual
  3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
imo the diff in Eternal = forever and Immortal = forever is even obvious in their usage; ha but i'm not sure how to say it. When eternal means forever, as it surely can I guess, it is from the perspective of "it will still happen the same way after you are long gone, it will always happen that way."
 
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bbyrd009

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But I would say to you unequivocably that it is sound doctrine to understand that there are eternal torments and that this is the punishment of the sinner who rejects the forgiveness of Christ.
the bolded part helps to make the point, however, that wisdom is hidden from the wise, and we seek to make the Bible comport with our lexicon, when It even states that this will not work?

Iow that pov will either agree or disagree with other Scripture, and the great thing about our time spent under servants is that we get an opportunity to familiarize ourselves with all of the Bible, so that later when we read...um, crap, i'm sorry here ok, but when we read deterministic statements from ppl who say they know little alarm bells immediately start going off--which means like "hark!" and not necessarily "lie!" but usually a lie, in some little detail at least.

So iow i completely agree with your words in this case, but we are SiT at each other as long as our defs of Eternal vary at this reading.
And so then you just check to see if you are dealing with a seeker, or a speaker, and list some of the vv that occur to you in support or in unsupport, and see what the guy, the other, does with them, and voila; but of course one eternal principle seems to be that a speaker cannot acknowledge the refuting vv, no matter how many you list, i could easily list ten unsupporting vv for that concept, and you have prolly heard them all, only somehow you will not hear them.

And i dunno if this describes you or not--me, for sure--but...oh, enough for now i guess, dang
 

bbyrd009

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for someday maybe

In Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50, it is shown that in that place of punishment, the nature of the punishment is that there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And in Matthew 25:46 it is clear that the duration of this punishment is that it is everlasting.

Looking at the scripture in Daniel 12, it should be clear that the person is awoken out of sleep to be cast into that everlasting fire.
 
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charity

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It is the soul that will be burning for all of eternity; which thing is immortal and will never lose consciousness.
'Which in His times He shall shew,
Who is the blessed and only Potentate,
the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality,
dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
whom no man hath seen,
nor can see:
to whom be honour and power everlasting.
Amen.

(1 Timothy 6:15)

Hello @justbyfaith,

With respect, man does not have an immortal soul: for the soul that sinneth it shall surely die (Ezekiel 18:4 & 20); and as all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), then all die. Are you, like many others, going to perpetuate the lie of Satan in the garden of Eden to Eve, and say that 'Thou shalt not surely die'?

*There is also no consciousness in death, for the faculties which produce consciousness have ceased to operate.

* There is only One Who has immortality.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris





 
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brakelite

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'Which in His times He shall shew,
Who is the blessed and only Potentate,
the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality,
dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
whom no man hath seen,
nor can see:
to whom be honour and power everlasting.
Amen.

(1 Timothy 6:15)

Hello @justbyfaith,

With respect, man does not have an immortal soul: for the soul that sinneth it shall surely die; and as all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, then all die. Are you, like many others, going to perpetuate the lie of Satan in the garden of Eden to Eve, and say that 'Thou shalt not surely die'? There is no consciousness in death, for the faculties which produce consciousness have ceased to operate.

* There is only One Who has immortality.

In Christ Jesus
Chris





And it isn't as if you are quoting some obscure prophet and giving some complex description a certain twist in order to arrive at a preconceived conclusion.
Paul was telling it straight, simple, concise and truthful. We are mortal: which means we DIE, and except for the resurrection through the power and grace of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, we would stay dead. Forever!
Any teaching that suggests the so called natural immortality of man, undermines the resurrection and makes a mockery of the second coming because it's sole purpose is to wake up the Saints and take them home.
 
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Davy

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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.


In Genesis 4:13 Cain cries out that his punishment is more than he can bear. The Lord alleviates his punishment by warding off those who would seek his life.

Revelation 22:15 occurs after creation of the New Heavens and Earth, and it states "but outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Why mention those outside the Kingdom in such a way as though they were still practicing these sinful habits after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire?

As a child of God, those that hold contempt in their hearts toward my Lord Jesus Christ are my enemies Psalm 139:22. Though I believe it is in accordance with Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:35 that we pray for them anyway. May God be merciful even to those wicked when they come before Him in judgement.

No, Revelation 22:14-15 occurs during the "thousand years" reign by our Lord Jesus and His elect in Rev.20. You simply have missed OT Scripture about the millennial sanctuary with God's River having returned with it on earth during Christ's thousand years reign, along with the many trees on either side of that River, as written in Ezekiel 47. The unsaved will still exist during that thousand years while the beloved city is manifested on earth. But the full Godhead will not have returned until after the thousand years and the "lake of fire" event. Then the new heavens and a new earth will be fully established.
 

bbyrd009

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We are mortal: which means we DIE, and except for the resurrection through the power and grace of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, we would stay dead. Forever!
well, so you say, yes. But wouldn't that still make more than one immortal, bl?
 
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amadeus

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Hi @amadeus,

The nature of the punishment is that there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth; and the duration of the punishment is that it is everlasting.

The Lord, while we are on the earth, offers it to us to have our sin(s) washed away and the very nature of sin dealt with in eternity by virtue of the decision we make for Christ while on the earth.

If the nature of sin be not dealt with through the Cross, then, even those who are wailing and gnashing their teeth throughout eternity, will not be able to cease from sinning.

This is the reason why the punishment is everlasting; because the person's sin nature has not been dealt with through faith in God's blood: and therefore they will continue to be committing sins throughout eternity, heaping up more judgment as time passes wherein the punishment meted out will always be more needed (because justice requires it) because of the sins committed.
If you have not seen what I believe on this, I must then leave it in the hands of our God, the only One who gives any real increase!
 

amadeus

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...but the final result must be death. They suffer for an appropriate time according to the offense, then they die. They indeed do cease to exist. They are burnt up...
There is only one thing that can dissuade me from that stance. I would need some form of absolute irrevocable proof that sinners are given the gift of eternal life. Because bro/sis, if the saved and/or the righteous need eternal life as a gift in order to continue in existence, then sure as shooting, the wicked do. And there is no evidence, in fact even contrary evidence, that such a transaction is pending.
Even more emphasis needed on this unending Life. Sinners cannot have it unless they receive what Jesus brought. Many simply do not receive it and remain dead. Dead people are dead. When their allotted time is ended nothing of them remains at all.
 

amadeus

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imo the diff in Eternal = forever and Immortal = forever is even obvious in their usage; ha but i'm not sure how to say it. When eternal means forever, as it surely can I guess, it is from the perspective of "it will still happen the same way after you are long gone, it will always happen that way."
Indeed, often in the scriptures when we see the word "forever" or "for ever" in English it pertains to for as long as God permits or prescribes. [what can it or does it mean to a God with no beginning and no end?]Men use their own ideas of what the word means rather than realizing or seeking what God means. Someone, some man that is, has already decided what "forever" means and many will not let go of it to consider any other possibility.
 
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CoreIssue

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Indeed, often in the scriptures when we see the word "forever" or "for ever" in English it pertains to for as long as God permits or prescribes. [what can it or does it mean to a God with no beginning and no end?]Men use their own ideas of what the word means rather than realizing or seeking what God means. Someone, some man that is, has already decided what "forever" means and many will not let go of it to consider any other possibility.
No such thing as Annihilation.
 

marks

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so, what do you think Adam "ate" in a spiritual context that caused him to only die spiritually?

not a um lawyer question, ok, I have several theories, but idk
His own will contrary to God's.

But like you said . . . theories.
 
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marks

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I disagree. Jesus did say there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but He did not say that this alone was the punishment due sin. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. DEATH jbf. One doesn't wail, cry, shed tears, regret anything; nor does he gnash his teeth because a dead body can't move right? Of course the popular belief is that some form of spirit/wraith/ghost etc continues to live after the death of the body, and it is this that is now suffering in "hell". But that isn't what the scriptures teach is it.
What we must consider is the harmony of scripture. So death and wailing can not be separated from one another, they must harmonise...which means that indeed, sinners will at some time, after they have been resurrected, wail and gnash their teeth, but the final result must be death. They suffer for an appropriate time according to the offense, then they die. They indeed do cease to exist. They are burnt up...
There is only one thing that can dissuade me from that stance. I would need some form of absolute irrevocable proof that sinners are given the gift of eternal life. Because bro/sis, if the saved and/or the righteous need eternal life as a gift in order to continue in existence, then sure as shooting, the wicked do. And there is no evidence, in fact even contrary evidence, that such a transaction is pending.

This is where the definition of eternal life is so important. Jesus told us what eternal life is, it's not existing forever, that's not the definition. It's knowing God, and knowing Jesus.

Relationship with God is life, and we live in Him, so we have eternal life. As long as He lives, we live in Him.

Those who do not know God, and know Jesus, do not have eternal life, yet though they exist.

Having eternal life and not having eternal life are not functions of whether the person exists. They can exist without having eternal life, not knowing God.

The question of whether a person continues forever in torment or not must be answered separately.

Much love!
Mark
 

bbyrd009

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...and except for the resurrection through the power and grace of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, we would stay d
. Ha. So very hard to let go, isn't it? The very hardest thing in the world to even think about letting go, huh. bl is, by god, going to become a f Immortal whatever kind of way that needs to happen, and to hell with all that we do not yet know jazz huh. Ha and of course now i'm getting pinged from 3diff locations lol, been dormant all morning, so i guess I'll take a hint

Btw i meant "bl" back there, my apologies. This thing is srsly causing me literal pain.
 

bbyrd009

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Indeed, often in the scriptures when we see the word "forever" or "for ever" in English it pertains to for as long as God permits or prescribes. [what can it or does it mean to a God with no beginning and no end?]Men use their own ideas of what the word means rather than realizing or seeking what God means. Someone, some man that is, has already decided what "forever" means and many will not let go of it to consider any other possibility.
Well in all fairness imo Scripture goes to great lengths to seemingly encourage the pov...to older children anyway. Near as i can tell they were as obsessed with the concept then as we are now. And i doubt Abba is immune to a little um reverse psychology, or whatever that is. Which that isn't i guess, i've had about 10 hours sleep in the past week. Pandering, although there is a more psych term, notcoming to me
 

bbyrd009

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This is where the definition of eternal life is so important. Jesus told us what eternal life is, it's not existing forever, that's not the definition. It's knowing God, and knowing Jesus.

Relationship with God is life, and we live in Him, so we have eternal life. As long as He lives, we live in Him.

Those who do not know God, and know Jesus, do not have eternal life, yet though they exist.

Having eternal life and not having eternal life are not functions of whether the person exists. They can exist without having eternal life, not knowing God.

The question of whether a person continues forever in torment or not must be answered separately.

Much love!
Mark
that was awesome imo, ty
 
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