Convince me of Annihilationism

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amadeus

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I was referring to Revelation 20, being cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death, like that.

If Adam died yet did not stop "being", and this is death, then because a person dies the second death, cast into the lake of fire, do they of necessity stop "being"?

Any thoughts?

Much love!
I guess depends on our definition of "being". Ultimately it is not the definition that matters but rather what the reality is. The reality of course is God. If we are enduring with Him to the end of our course, where is the difficulty?

I do believe that even the walking dead man has hope until he has reached the end of his course without the Life that Jesus brought. Here we see the glimmer given not just to the born again or born from above, but to every man born to woman:

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9
 
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amadeus

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As soon as they become unconscious of their pain, the smoke that rises is no longer of torment.

It is the soul that will be burning for all of eternity; which thing is immortal and will never lose consciousness.

Consider it as a warning and a deep motivation to be sure that you are correct on doctrines that matter to salvation; and that you choose to be an obedient Christian.
That sounds like Life to me. What the wicked receive is death as per:

"This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecc 9:3-6
 
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ScottA

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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.


In Genesis 4:13 Cain cries out that his punishment is more than he can bear. The Lord alleviates his punishment by warding off those who would seek his life.

Revelation 22:15 occurs after creation of the New Heavens and Earth, and it states "but outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Why mention those outside the Kingdom in such a way as though they were still practicing these sinful habits after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire?

As a child of God, those that hold contempt in their hearts toward my Lord Jesus Christ are my enemies Psalm 139:22. Though I believe it is in accordance with Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:35 that we pray for them anyway. May God be merciful even to those wicked when they come before Him in judgement.
This is a big subject, and you have asked many questions. I will start with some basics:

1. The context of what you have asked about is as big as God, therefore, considering only part can only result in error. In the proper context, if one word from God is to be believed, they all are. You cannot pick and choose. Thus, if you are to believe any of it and call yourself a Christian (as you do), you have no choice but to believe every passage, even if you do not understand and have to take those points on faith. Life is short. You will know soon enough.

2. The word of God is delivered to us in two parts, one before and one after the Apex (whom is Christ, and the coming of the kingdom of heaven upon men). At which time Jesus announced the need for us to be born again of the spirit of God in order to enter the kingdom of God. Soon after, the apostle Paul explained that the former times pertained to the "first Adam" and were of the natural man, and that the times following the Apex (the times of the Gentiles) pertain to the "Last Adam, a life-giving spirit." Thus, this Apex marked the namesake of Jesus as the "Beginning" and the "End", and the transition from the natural to the spirit. Granted, this is a major stumbling block for people still born in the flesh and walking in it. Nonetheless, this is the truth from God, and the process.

In this truth (as Paul described), the natural or "old" man dies, and the "new" spiritual man lives. Which means, that as time goes on, all that is evil dies...which is that "man of sin revealed" in the flesh, also spoken of by Paul. Thus, "comes the end."

3. However, explaining this transition would not be complete without a full grasp and understanding of just what is meant by the "I am" nature of God. If we are "born [again] of the spirit of God", the transition is from men of flesh existing on a created timeline that ends when the process is finished...to the timeless and eternal nature of God, which is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." This is a huge transition that easily goes unrecognized for continuing to walk in the flesh and in the world. However, in the end - which begins when one is born again...no more does anything or anyone exist, who existed in that temporary timeline, but rather exists from that point on, for eternity, whether inside the kingdom or outside. In that day, regardless of being inside or outside, men will not say "I was" or "I will be", but all will say, "I am." By this eternal reality of God, and in this way, "every knee shall bow."

4. All of which God has done in His great mercy for those who were lost. Unfortunately, some prefer the natural and death, over the spiritual and life.
 
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justbyfaith

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That sounds like Life to me. What the wicked receive is death as per:

"This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecc 9:3-6

Dan 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3, And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
 

bbyrd009

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As soon as they become unconscious of their pain, the smoke that rises is no longer of torment.

It is the soul that will be burning for all of eternity; which thing is immortal and will never lose consciousness.

Consider it as a warning and a deep motivation to be sure that you are correct on doctrines that matter to salvation; and that you choose to be an obedient Christian.
always nice to have a little comedy relief here, ty
 

bbyrd009

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Consider that done. Bbyrd009
already did bro, and i also pray that i be the very last enemy you will ever have, ok.

Hopefully you get that when you ascended that throne yur on and started the Pharisee's Prayer you didn't leave me much choice ok
 
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amadeus

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Dan 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3, And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Very simply I would suggest a couple of things. For one consider the word "everlasting" and what it really means... not as you have apparently learned it in English but as it might be understood by another in the original tongue.

Another thing is the word, "contempt". When someone is held in contempt, there needs to be someone so holding, right? When all sin and temptation and envy and strife is gone and all temptation... if such a time and/or place and/or condition should be or should come, who is it that will be holding whom in contempt? The entirety of verse 2 and the words, "for and ever" come from the same source word as ""everlasting" in verse 2.

If the word means an unending period of time, is there not something wrong in that... who will hold who in contempt for an unending period once there is no more time and all that is sin and all that leads to sin is gone? What message is God giving to us with those verses?

Everlasting or for ever and ever in the KJV

`owlam (o-lawm'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 5769

  1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
    1. ancient time, long time (of past)
    2. (of future)
      1. for ever, always
      2. continuous existence, perpetual
      3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
KJV Word Usage and Count
ever 272
everlasting 63
old 22
perpetual 22
evermore 15
never 13
time 6
ancient 5
world 4
always 3
alway 2
long 2
more 2
never 2
miscellaneous 6

Contempt in the KJV
D@ra'own (der-aw-one'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 1860





    • aversion, abhorrence
KJV Word Usage and Count
abhorring 1 contempt 1


D@ra'own (der-aw-one'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 1860

  1. aversion, abhorrence
KJV Word Usage and Count
abhorring 1 contempt 1
 
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Jay Ross

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It's actually a complex question.

But a simple reading will suffice. God told Adam the day he ate he'd die. Adam ate. Did God lie?

Much love!

As usual, your simple reading does not suffice in our understanding of the intent of Gen.2:17, because to gain understanding we must go back to the original text source and see what the Hebrew text is saying. Using the Transliterated text we have the following for the last two words of this verse: -

mō·wṯ {die} tā·mūṯ {the death, i.e. the second death}.​

The statement of God to Adam does not indicate when he will die if he eats of the Tree of Knowledge of God and Evil, and the Prophet Ezekiel informs us that it is the unrepentant sins of people that will mark them for the Second Death and in Revelation 20 we are told that the punishment for unrepentant sin is to be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.

Now your statement above is true in the sense that Adam will die, i.e. the second death, but in the context of what God was telling Adam, your understanding leaves a lot out as to what will happen to those who have unrepentant sin at the time of the GWTRJ.

Shalom.
 

justbyfaith

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Very simply I would suggest a couple of things. For one consider the word "everlasting" and what it really means... not as you have apparently learned it in English but as it might be understood by another in the original tongue.

Another thing is the word, "contempt". When someone is held in contempt, there needs to be someone so holding, right? When all sin and temptation and envy and strife is gone and all temptation... if such a time and/or place and/or condition should be or should come, who is it that will be holding whom in contempt? The entirety of verse 2 and the words, "for and ever" come from the same source word as ""everlasting" in verse 2.

If the word means an unending period of time, is there not something wrong in that... who will hold who in contempt for an unending period once there is no more time and all that is sin and all that leads to sin is gone? What message is God giving to us with those verses?

Everlasting or for ever and ever in the KJV

`owlam (o-lawm'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 5769

  1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
    1. ancient time, long time (of past)
    2. (of future)
      1. for ever, always
      2. continuous existence, perpetual
      3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
KJV Word Usage and Count
ever 272
everlasting 63
old 22
perpetual 22
evermore 15
never 13
time 6
ancient 5
world 4
always 3
alway 2
long 2
more 2
never 2
miscellaneous 6

Contempt in the KJV
D@ra'own (der-aw-one'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 1860





    • aversion, abhorrence
KJV Word Usage and Count
abhorring 1 contempt 1











































































D@ra'own (der-aw-one'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 1860


  1. aversion, abhorrence
KJV Word Usage and Count
abhorring 1 contempt 1
I'm not sure what it is that you are trying to say by this.

But I would say to you unequivocably that it is sound doctrine to understand that there are eternal torments and that this is the punishment of the sinner who rejects the forgiveness of Christ.

In Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50, it is shown that in that place of punishment, the nature of the punishment is that there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And in Matthew 25:46 it is clear that the duration of this punishment is that it is everlasting.

Looking at the scripture in Daniel 12, it should be clear that the person is awoken out of sleep to be cast into that everlasting fire.
 

amadeus

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I'm not sure what it is that you are trying to say by this.

But I would say to you unequivocably that it is sound doctrine to understand that there are eternal torments and that this is the punishment of the sinner who rejects the forgiveness of Christ.

In Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50, it is shown that in that place of punishment, the nature of the punishment is that there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And in Matthew 25:46 it is clear that the duration of this punishment is that it is everlasting.

Looking at the scripture in Daniel 12, it should be clear that the person is awoken out of sleep to be cast into that everlasting fire.
When a person reads those verses with the preconceived notions already planted in their minds as taught by most main-line and many smaller church groups, yes, it certainly would be "considered" sound doctrine by the reader as well.

The duration of death is certainly everlasting... and death is the punishment already rendered. The vision of God as per God and read in the Bible when led by the Holy Ghost is not about an unending punishment for someone who lived like a devil for 70 or 80 or even 100 years. That is NOT God's message to men. His message is about the available gift of Life. People can pick that scenario of unending suffering out of the written scriptures if that is what they are looking for, but to say that it is a without a doubt correct vision of the only one who is Good is not seeing only through a glass darkly but rather an example of blind men almost docilely following blind leaders into a ditch.
 
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justbyfaith

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Hi @amadeus,

The nature of the punishment is that there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth; and the duration of the punishment is that it is everlasting.

The Lord, while we are on the earth, offers it to us to have our sin(s) washed away and the very nature of sin dealt with in eternity by virtue of the decision we make for Christ while on the earth.

If the nature of sin be not dealt with through the Cross, then, even those who are wailing and gnashing their teeth throughout eternity, will not be able to cease from sinning.

This is the reason why the punishment is everlasting; because the person's sin nature has not been dealt with through faith in God's blood: and therefore they will continue to be committing sins throughout eternity, heaping up more judgment as time passes wherein the punishment meted out will always be more needed (because justice requires it) because of the sins committed.
 
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brakelite

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The nature of the punishment is that there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth; and the duration of the punishment is that it is everlasting.
I disagree. Jesus did say there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but He did not say that this alone was the punishment due sin. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. DEATH jbf. One doesn't wail, cry, shed tears, regret anything; nor does he gnash his teeth because a dead body can't move right? Of course the popular belief is that some form of spirit/wraith/ghost etc continues to live after the death of the body, and it is this that is now suffering in "hell". But that isn't what the scriptures teach is it.
What we must consider is the harmony of scripture. So death and wailing can not be separated from one another, they must harmonise...which means that indeed, sinners will at some time, after they have been resurrected, wail and gnash their teeth, but the final result must be death. They suffer for an appropriate time according to the offense, then they die. They indeed do cease to exist. They are burnt up...
There is only one thing that can dissuade me from that stance. I would need some form of absolute irrevocable proof that sinners are given the gift of eternal life. Because bro/sis, if the saved and/or the righteous need eternal life as a gift in order to continue in existence, then sure as shooting, the wicked do. And there is no evidence, in fact even contrary evidence, that such a transaction is pending.
 
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justbyfaith

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All you have to do is combine Matthew 13:41-42 (kjv), Matthew 13:49-50 (kjv), and Matthew 25:46 (kjv).

Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 
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brakelite

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Let me ask you a number of questions, and please give a straight up honest answer... No waffling...
Death/punishment/wages of sin... from which there is no resurrection... Is that everlasting? An everlasting punishment?
A death which does have a resurrection, is that everlasting?
Is there any resurrection for those that have a part in the second death? Is the second death therefore an everlasting punishment?
Does eternal everlasting death from which there can be taken no hope... No life... No expectation of a future...at all, anytime anywhere for anyone agree with scripture,??? Remember, be honest.
 

farouk

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Let me ask you a number of questions, and please give a straight up honest answer... No waffling...
Death/punishment/wages of sin... from which there is no resurrection... Is that everlasting? An everlasting punishment?
A death which does have a resurrection, is that everlasting?
Is there any resurrection for those that have a part in the second death? Is the second death therefore an everlasting punishment?
Does eternal everlasting death from which there can be taken no hope... No life... No expectation of a future...at all, anytime anywhere for anyone agree with scripture,??? Remember, be honest.
1 Corinthians 15 - a most glorious passage - does indeed seem to have an everlasting aspect to the victory mentioned in verse 57.
 

bbyrd009

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It's actually a complex question.

But a simple reading will suffice. God told Adam the day he ate he'd die. Adam ate. Did God lie?

Much love!
so, what do you think Adam "ate" in a spiritual context that caused him to only die spiritually?

not a um lawyer question, ok, I have several theories, but idk
 

bbyrd009

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always nice to have a little comedy relief here, ty
saw eternal and immortal conflated in another Righteous Retribution movie last night, and I dunno if I just didn't notice before or bc the um Euphrates has now dried up--literally too, which is still blowing my mind, prololy gonna go look for myself--to make way for the kings of the East that maybe these are on the rise, theses conflations?

i'm searching through older tv stuff to see, seems to me that that Christian Texas Ranger guy that everyone loves so much, should be some in there? Cant recall his name right now