The false gospel of grace

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Lady Crosstalk

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As i have heard said "we are not sinless (Christians) but we should be sinning less and less as we grow in faith and trust.
One of my brothers, the first of us siblings to be saved at 19 yrs. old, has many struggles as he totally has ADHD...I know some will poo-poo this diagnosis. When he was a child he was so overactive, always getting into trouble with our dad. He even got blamed for stuff that my 2 other brothers did!! He is now in his early 50's and he still loves and follows Jesus but, he said to me the other day when we were talking about sin: Ya know Nance, it seems as though I sin like, 17 times before my feet even hit the floor in the morning. He has issues with "resting" in The Lord yet...his heart towards The Lord is pure. It's a heart thing ♥

It's a love thing. Too often in the past, legalism has turned many away from a life in Christ. My pastor brother-in-law describes legalistic Christians as, "looking like they were baptized in pickle juice!" Concentrating on the negative (not sinning) makes one into a negative person. Concentrating on the positive--our love for God and His Son, is what keeps us from sinning (not totally, there always seems to be sin from time to time). Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." He added a new one that we do well to keep in mind--"love one another".
 
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Nancy

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It's a love thing. Too often in the past, legalism has turned many away from a life in Christ. My pastor brother-in-law describes legalistic Christians as, "looking like they were baptized in pickle juice!" Concentrating on the negative (not sinning) makes one into a negative person. Concentrating on the positive--our love for God and His Son, is what keeps us from sinning (not totally, there always seems to be sin from time to time). Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." He added a new one that we do well to keep in mind--"love one another".
;)
 

Episkopos

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It is unlikely that the reason why people have switched to more modern translations is "because they don't like something that the Lord spoke to them out of the KJV". Much more likely that they don't understand the antiquated language of the KJV--it doesn't say much at all to them. The dense theological concepts of Paul are much easier to understand in a more modern translation. It has been my experience that those who have "itching ears" and won't "endure sound doctrine" really don't read the Bible in any version.

I repeatedly check one version against another (yes--the KJV also) and there is very little difference between versions--certainly none that substantially alter the meaning. Now this wouldn't be true of Eugene Peterson's The Message --which I consider to be a paraphrase, and The Message does substantially alter the meaning. I don't care for any of the NIV editions beyond 1975 either, but if that was all I had, I would read it.

There is enough duplication in all of the actual translations (as opposed to paraphrases) that it would be extremely difficult to miss the proper gospel message, from the point of the actual words. Error mostly comes from improper interpretation, not from poor translation. The Holy Spirit guides into all truth--not men. An example of the duplication of thought would be the "mini-gospel" of 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Following the "love chapter" (chapter 13) it tells you how to conduct yourself as a Christian and be "perfected in love" of which John Wesley often spoke.

The Book of Romans is a primer on being a Christian as well--along with some fairly heavy theological concepts. Wesley said that he was converted upon hearing Luther's preface to the Book of Romans. Wesley is often accused of preaching that "entire sanctification" is possible in this life but that is not true. One point of confusion is that the Greek word teleioi found in Matthew 5:48. Teleioi does not mean "flawless" or "spotless" but rather, "complete". Thus, Wesley taught that a Christian becomes complete in love (NOT perfectly sinless). https://www.theopedia.com/wesleyan-perfectionism We often speak of being of a "mature" faith in the same way. It is clear that Wesley was not sinless in his own life. He and his wife, Mary, had a terrible marriage--she left him after only seven years. Mary was independently wealthy--and lived apart from John for the rest of her life. She told friends that she left John because she found a packet of "love letters" (in a secret drawer in his wardrobe chest) which he wrote to a woman who had been with him in ministry (she had apparently returned them upon her marriage to another man). John didn't even attend Mary's funeral when she died. Earlier, about her, he said somewhat sarcastically: "I did not forsake her, I did not dismiss her, I will not recall her."

Others who came after Wesley, began to preach that "entire sanctification" was possible in this life. It is linked to the concept of theosis --that it is possible to merge with God and be perfect in holiness before death (the pagan mystics had long held such beliefs). Most all students of the Bible (at least in Western Christianity) consider the notion to be mystical and at odds with gospel truth. They have thus called the concept of possible moral perfection in mortality to be heresy, and I agree that the Bible does not teach any such thing.


Theosis is biblical and although rejected in the Western churches...it is a basic tenet in the Eastern orthodox churches. The Salvation Army is an exception ...as well as a few other denominations. These taught holiness and entire sanctification. But nothing like the Eastern churches.

Paul was an advocate of the high calling in Christ...Oneness with God.....which is practically unknown in the West in modern times.
 

marks

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Theosis is biblical and although rejected in the Western churches

I'd have to say, not in the churches which I know.

We are born again with God's nature, now our new nature. Partakers of His nature. The fact that we now share in our Heavenly Father's nature is what allows us to live a holy and righteous life, because we have become holy and righteous through our rebirth.

Much love!
mark
 

stunnedbygrace

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I read this thread real quick while I was waiting to close up at 7. Then on the way home, I got behind a car and realized you didn't give an important option in the poll. Vanity plates!! :D
The car I was behind said IROL4JC.
 

stunnedbygrace

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I had to look up theosis because I had never heard the word. I think Paul was a...theosisist! :)
 

justbyfaith

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Much more likely that they don't understand the antiquated language of the KJV--it doesn't say much at all to them.

The kjv is not that hard to understand....anyone with a third grade reading level can understand it. Just get a dictionary for the more difficult words. You will even benefit by increasing your vocabulary.

I repeatedly check one version against another (yes--the KJV also) and there is very little difference between versions--certainly none that substantially alter the meaning.

I find that there are substantial, subtle differences that make a difference when trying to prove a point out of the kjv. The online bible version supported by this site, for example, often translates verses slightly differently so that I have to refer you to the kjv rather than just let you click on the verse as it is given in the online bible here.

It's a love thing.

Indeed.

Col 3:14, And above all these things put on charity (love), which is the bond of perfectness.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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Theosis is biblical and although rejected in the Western churches...it is a basic tenet in the Eastern orthodox churches. The Salvation Army is an exception ...as well as a few other denominations. These taught holiness and entire sanctification. But nothing like the Eastern churches.

Paul was an advocate of the high calling in Christ...Oneness with God.....which is practically unknown in the West in modern times.

God is God--and we are not. Theosis is very much linked to Christian perfectionism and, in my opinion (and that of many, many others) is deception. The New Agers teach that we will become gods and goddesses.

Striking the Balance
 

Lady Crosstalk

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I had to look up theosis because I had never heard the word. I think Paul was a...theosisist! :)

No--that is a concept that invaded Christianity through the Cappadocian Fathers and there are good reasons why it has always been considered a false teaching in Western Christianity. It was never embraced by either the RCC or the later Reformers. The Apostle Paul was not a false teacher.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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I'd have to say, not in the churches which I know.

We are born again with God's nature, now our new nature. Partakers of His nature. The fact that we now share in our Heavenly Father's nature is what allows us to live a holy and righteous life, because we have become holy and righteous through our rebirth.

Much love!
mark

Theosis is much more than that--it suggests that in merging with God, we become a "little god". I believe there is now a prosperity gospel preacher who preaches that (is it Creflo Dollar?--yes, that is his real name:rolleyes:).
 

stunnedbygrace

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No--that is a concept that invaded Christianity through the Cappadocian Fathers and there are good reasons why it has always been considered a false teaching in Western Christianity. It was never embraced by either the RCC or the later Reformers. The Apostle Paul was not a false teacher.

I see it earlier than that! We are being transformed and conformed to someone else's image, aren't we? Didn't the apostles say that?
 

Lady Crosstalk

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The kjv is not that hard to understand....anyone with a third grade reading level can understand it. Just get a dictionary for the more difficult words. You will even benefit by increasing your vocabulary.
I didn't say I didn't understand it--I was raised on the KJV. I said most of the under 30s find it difficult and you will never convince them that the KJV is "superior" (it really isn't).



I find that there are substantial, subtle differences that make a difference when trying to prove a point out of the kjv. The online bible version supported by this site, for example, often translates verses slightly differently so that I have to refer you to the kjv rather than just let you click on the verse as it is given in the online bible here.
It is the Holy Spirit who leads into all truth--not any specific translation.



Indeed.

Col 3:14, And above all these things put on charity (love), which is the bond of perfectness.

I looked up the Greek--the word used is teleiotētos which means "perfect unity." The passage is stating, "Above all these things, put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity." Says nothing about personal perfection.
 

Episkopos

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God is God--and we are not. Theosis is very much linked to Christian perfectionism and, in my opinion (and that of many, many others) is deception. The New Agers teach that we will become gods and goddesses.

Striking the Balance


You are disrespecting an ancient and biblical church doctrine. The real new age movement comes from the West and a lack of real connection with the living God. (theosis)

So you are seeing this backwards.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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I see it earlier than that! We are being transformed and conformed to someone else's image, aren't we? Didn't the apostles say that?


Adam and Eve were made in the image of God but that doesn't mean that they were God. Isn't that the temptation that Satan put before them--that they would "become like God"? God is God, and we are not (nor will we ever be).
 

Lady Crosstalk

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You are disrespecting an ancient and biblical church doctrine. The real new age movement comes from the West and a lack of real connection from the living God. (theosis)

So you are seeing this backwards.

The New Age movement is pagan mysticism. The Western Church rejected theosis for the reason that they felt that rationality should control doctrine rather than mystical experience.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Adam and Eve were made in the image of God but that doesn't mean that they were God. Isn't that the temptation that Satan put before them--that they would "become like God"? God is God, and we are not (nor will we ever be).

I didn't see in what I read about theosis that the Christian thought is that we actually become God. But I'm sure that, as always, some unstable men could grab it and run with it to that!
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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Man-made control has led to a lack of connection to God...and a vacuum to be filled with other spirits.

An ancient Hebraic concept that put Israel in marked contrast to their pagan neighbors was the idea that faith must be informed by reason. The prophet, Isaiah said, "Come, let us reason together." He mocked those who were idolatrous, for bowing down to idols they had made from a block of wood and then burning the rest on their cooking fires.
 

stunnedbygrace

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You are disrespecting an ancient and biblical church doctrine. The real new age movement comes from the West and a lack of real connection with the living God. (theosis)

So you are seeing this backwards.

Its maybe much safer to make sure everyone keeps a safe enough distance from men like Paul and the Holy Spirit. Just ask Saphira and Ananias! (Did I get their names right?)
 
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