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Featured The false gospel of grace

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    You want me to say if we are trusting (abiding in Him) that we are sinning? Or that we might possibly be sinning unawares?

    Before I change the verse (if we trust in Him we do not sin) to say that when I trust in Him, I do sin, I would rather change it to say, when I stop trusting Him, then I sin. Or I could reasonably say that at times I have thought I was trusting Him (abiding in Him) but I really wasn't abiding. After all, I can easily say I am trusting Him even WHILE I'm worrying about how the next bill will be payed.

    So...if we abide in Him, we do not sin. We actually have to stop abiding in Him to sin. But thank God that even if I am unfaithful, He remains faithful and shows me what my heart is up to so that I can walk in truth concerning myself. Better to walk in truth than to be deceived.
     
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  2. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I think we're on the same page on all this.

    I like to keep in mind 1 Corinthians 10, taking captive every thought to the obedience of Christ.

    The lists in the New Testament of the things of the flesh and the things of the spirit, many people turn these into the NT "Law", but they are definitive, not legislative.

    Take for example, Adulterers won't enter the kingdom. So people say, OK, thou shalt not commit adultery. Now, no one would argue with that, right? Except, the Bible also says things like "such were some of you", so what we're doing is not saying, Christian, you must not commit adultery, instead we're saying, Christian, let Christ live through you, and make you like Him, and Jesus doesn't commit adultery, so if you are, or you want to, then this part isn't like Jesus, and those thoughts are to be taken captive, and submitted to Him.

    When we yield ourselves to Jesus, trusting in Him, we live like Him.

    Much love!
     
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  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying I want you to say that.

    I'm asking for your POV, whether someone who is abiding in Christ might sin unawares.

    Your answer then is no.

    How can you know then whether you are abiding in Christ or not?

    It may feel like you are, but then, if you are not when you sin, and you may sin unawares, then you may be not abiding in Christ even though you think you are.

    The verse says that the one who is born of God does not sin.

    Does that verse mean what it says?

    Much love!
    Mark
     
  4. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    We learn the obedience of trust through the trials He allows.

    I always marvel at the verse that says Jesus learned the obedience of trust through the things He suffered. I have seen that I learn the obedience of trust through my trials but I kind of get stumped when I try to consider Jesus learning the obedience of faith...
     
  5. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    I am amazed. How can anyone say they are a Christian when they refuse to believe God who sent Paul with the gospel of grace. I see that some think it is all about baking. Their sinful flesh is getting to the point of no sins of the flesh.

    The religious refuse to believe that God has made a way to save the ungodly. The simple gospel is what Paul said it is, not what the religious say it is. To the religious a Christian is a person who is becoming perfect while still living in sinful flesh and that is becoming self-righteous. The scriptures do not teach this. Paul said that He did not place any confidence in his flesh and neither do I. But it seems the the religious think they earn salvation by placing their faith in their works of the flesh to continue their baking.

    I don't think I am not going to reply to this thread any longer since what I say is HALF BAKED. Ha. Ha.
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I would just point out the following scripture passage:

    Rom 8:12, Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    Rom 8:13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    Rom 8:14, For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


    Jesus is. There is no sin in Him (1 John 3:5). And we who believe are in Him (1 John 5:20)

    It is a matter of becoming one with Him (Romans 5:11, 1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19, Ephesians 5:30-32).

    There are those who behave ungodly who are indeed in Christ.

    Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
     
  7. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    This happens when we are born again, do you agree?
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I think that the process begins when we are justified.

    Becoming absolutely one with Him, would be a second benefit (2 Corinthians 1:15) impaho.
     
  9. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Our flesh is not IN HIM. If it is then our flesh would not die. RIGHT?

    Romans 8:12 Living in the Spirit is placing faith in Him and His work on the cross. If anyone places their flesh as living in the Spirit then they don't know what this scripture is saying.

    Roman 8:14 Many seem to think that a child of God must live as they think they should but the child of God only answers to God, not man. RIGHT?
     
  10. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    The second benefit would be the benefit of having Paul there a second time. I don't see this passage teaching us that there is a 'Two-step' process to salvation.

    We are united with Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection. We are united with Him in adoption as sons. By His indwelling us. By us becoming "in Christ".

    Much love!
    mark
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi SBG,

    I think the passages reads simply, He learned obedience through the things He suffered". I don't thing Jesus learned how to obey, since He was without sin, but that He learned the experience of obedience even though it bring human suffering. What do you think?

    Much love!
     
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  12. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    This is odd...now you are asking me if the verse is correct that says one born of God does not sin, whereas before you seemed to want men TO admit they sin...

    But my pov is that...sort of...what is sin for one man is not always sin for every man. I realize that will require some explanation - to a man who is given more (understanding), more is required. It doesn't precisely mean that what is sin is completely different for every man, but I have to try to explain my pov and that's the best I can come up with right now.

    So back to the verse that says a man born of God does not sin - i am assuming you are referring to a verse that says (in my translation) that anyone born of God does not practice sin/continue in sin. To say that no one born of God is capable of ever sinning would be completely disconnected from my reality and what I've experienced after I met Him and received the Spirit.
     
  13. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    I agree that our flesh is not in Him. Our flesh is a condemned building. And you are right that if it wasn't, it wouldn't have to go. I would rather say that our flesh is in emnity against the Spirit of God and that if we walk in the Spirit, abiding/trusting, we put to death the works/deeds of the flesh. Paul said this when he said, I die daily. He also said he puts his flesh under/is rough with it.
     
  14. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    I have really enjoyed talking with you guys today. Regretfully, I have to bolt. Hope to come back later to see where we've further arrived at with the Spirit helping us so much as he is!
     
  15. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi SBG,

    Again, I'm not trying to"get you to admit", more just asking your POV.

    I think the verse is exactly correct, that which is born of God sins not.

    I know that many try to make this more palletable by saying, Practice sin, but what if we stay with the plainest sense?

    Can there really be any ambiguity to what this is saying?

    1 John 3
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    If we use the Biblical definition, that which is not of faith is sin, then yes, the exact list of what is sin may be different between you and me. But then, what of this verse, whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, and cannot sin, being born of God?

    According to this passage, the one who is born of God never acts outside of their faith, and cannot, because they are born of God.

    And further, God teaches us that being born of God, His seed remains in us.

    If John meant that we never find sins in our lives, then why would he have written as he did in the second chapter, Little children, I write these things to you that you sin not, and if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ the Righteous?

    Much love!
    Mark
     
  16. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I've been enjoying this also, and I'm looking forward to continuing!

    Much love!
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Eph 5:30, For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
    Eph 5:31, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
    Eph 5:32, This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


    So, is what is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, and 1 John 3:9 a first benefit?

    Why then, do we see so many Christians who have not come into this blessing spoken of in the above verses?
     
  18. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Well-Known Member

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    It is unlikely that the reason why people have switched to more modern translations is "because they don't like something that the Lord spoke to them out of the KJV". Much more likely that they don't understand the antiquated language of the KJV--it doesn't say much at all to them. The dense theological concepts of Paul are much easier to understand in a more modern translation. It has been my experience that those who have "itching ears" and won't "endure sound doctrine" really don't read the Bible in any version.

    I repeatedly check one version against another (yes--the KJV also) and there is very little difference between versions--certainly none that substantially alter the meaning. Now this wouldn't be true of Eugene Peterson's The Message --which I consider to be a paraphrase, and The Message does substantially alter the meaning. I don't care for any of the NIV editions beyond 1975 either, but if that was all I had, I would read it.

    There is enough duplication in all of the actual translations (as opposed to paraphrases) that it would be extremely difficult to miss the proper gospel message, from the point of the actual words. Error mostly comes from improper interpretation, not from poor translation. The Holy Spirit guides into all truth--not men. An example of the duplication of thought would be the "mini-gospel" of 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Following the "love chapter" (chapter 13) it tells you how to conduct yourself as a Christian and be "perfected in love" of which John Wesley often spoke.

    The Book of Romans is a primer on being a Christian as well--along with some fairly heavy theological concepts. Wesley said that he was converted upon hearing Luther's preface to the Book of Romans. Wesley is often accused of preaching that "entire sanctification" is possible in this life but that is not true. One point of confusion is that the Greek word teleioi found in Matthew 5:48. Teleioi does not mean "flawless" or "spotless" but rather, "complete". Thus, Wesley taught that a Christian becomes complete in love (NOT perfectly sinless). https://www.theopedia.com/wesleyan-perfectionism We often speak of being of a "mature" faith in the same way. It is clear that Wesley was not sinless in his own life. He and his wife, Mary, had a terrible marriage--she left him after only seven years. Mary was independently wealthy--and lived apart from John for the rest of her life. She told friends that she left John because she found a packet of "love letters" (in a secret drawer in his wardrobe chest) which he wrote to a woman who had been with him in ministry (she had apparently returned them upon her marriage to another man). John didn't even attend Mary's funeral when she died. Earlier, about her, he said somewhat sarcastically: "I did not forsake her, I did not dismiss her, I will not recall her."

    Others who came after Wesley, began to preach that "entire sanctification" was possible in this life. It is linked to the concept of theosis --that it is possible to merge with God and be perfect in holiness before death (the pagan mystics had long held such beliefs). Most all students of the Bible (at least in Western Christianity) consider the notion to be mystical and at odds with gospel truth. They have thus called the concept of possible moral perfection in mortality to be heresy, and I agree that the Bible does not teach any such thing.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  19. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    As i have heard said "we are not sinless (Christians) but we should be sinning less and less as we grow in faith and trust.
    One of my brothers, the first of us siblings to be saved at 19 yrs. old, has many struggles as he totally has ADHD...I know some will poo-poo this diagnosis. When he was a child he was so overactive, always getting into trouble with our dad. He even got blamed for stuff that my 2 other brothers did!! He is now in his early 50's and he still loves and follows Jesus but, he said to me the other day when we were talking about sin: Ya know Nance, it seems as though I sin like, 17 times before my feet even hit the floor in the morning. He has issues with "resting" in The Lord yet...his heart towards The Lord is pure. It's a heart thing ♥
     
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  20. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    So very true, all.
    "But thank God that even if I am unfaithful, He remains faithful" <---That is such an awesome and comforting Truth.
    We all walk in and out of The Spirit because we have a parasite called sin that we will war against, daily. As we grow we will win more and more battles against this parasite. We will run the race while NEVER removing our Armour. We are not (unless living in His Spirit) perfect as He is perfect. Until He brings us to our final destiny, we are in a spiritual war.
    Good Post SG ♥
     
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