Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

[farouk]

Sometimes I wonder if, when it comes to the end and we all get to know 'who was right'...we won't find out that we all were...sort of! And by that I mean, perhaps each 'end times' scenario has a bit of truth in it, and then flies off the handle! Perhaps it's just that we haven't managed to harmonize them yet?
Of course, that's unlikely...but yes, sometimes I do wonder how so many 'honest to goodness Christians' could be wrong about such a major doctrine. And by major, I'm not talking Salvation wise...I'm just saying that the return of Christ is an exciting, important topic. But, even if it turns out that the Dispensationalists were wrong...or us Amillennialists...I know we're all still Christians. But ONE of us has to have it pretty darn wrong! So I can't help wondering if there's a more...middle ground. But then...I start wondering if that's where compromise is...and compromise is a dirty word!
Sometimes I think too much! Maybe that's my problem

The Lord's coming is linked with the church in 1 Corinthians 11.26.

 

[Naomi25]

Yeah, super tricky stuff and yes also very exciting! My beliefs have been shaken quite a bit since being on this forum, yet only one issue has ever shaken my "faith"...and we have enough threads on this certain doctrine so, not gonna go into it! lol. It is very dissapointing that the Churchs do not teach on this as it's HUGE! My guess is that it is too controversial maybe? Or, they themselves are not cemented in it as yet, lol. And, I do believe you are correct that we are not meant to stop thinking on "these things". We are to seek the things of God diligently and, this is where another person or persons would help.
Thank you for your offer Naomi and, I will probably drive you nuts once I really start getting into it! ♥

Ah, Nancy...you're the least "drive a person nuts" person here! So don't worry about it! The forum is where I get all my eschatology talk in too. I do a fair bit of other stuff with hubby and other people, but I'd drive them nuts with all my thoughts/questions on that...so I bring it here to bother you lovely people with instead! So, you're just sharing the burden, that's all!

 

[Naomi25]

Yeah many do tend to stick only with the classic NT passages. I like to use the OT references to show a pre-trib position. After all, no matter what position on these things a person holds, according to the evidentiary requirement of both the OT and NT it must be supported fully from both OT and NT.

You seem to be focused on "wrath". Let's look at this another way. The destruction of all land life on the earth except Noah and his family, was that destruction not the punishing wrath of Yahweh? And was not Noah sealed inside the ark before that wrath occurred? The actual word "wrath" did not show up till the 49th chapter of Genesis.

Was not the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah the punishing wrath of Yahweh? And was not Lot and his family removed from the area before the wrath was poured out on the cities? But "wrath" didn't show up for another 36 chapters.

The idea of a pre-trib removal before things go down is not without precedence in scripture.

Please bear with me a little...I wrote the OP at the beginning of last year, so, it's not that fresh in my mind!

It's not so much that I'm 'focused' on wrath. Or even that I dispute that God does pour out his wrath upon an ungodly world. It's mostly that it seems to me that the passages Dispensationalists use to try and prove a 7 year period IN WHICH said wrath is poured out upon the earth, those verses seem more like "judgement day" wrath verses. Does that make sense? They seem to be verse that are speaking of salvation or wrath....judgement day wrath or judgement day salvation. Not a stretched out period upon the earth.

So...in answer to your questions, yes, I would say that the flood was a clear 'wrath' judgement upon the earth, as was Sodom and Gomorrah. But, as I said, it's more that the specific 'wrath' verses that are used seem 'that day' specific, rather than 'time period that is protracted for a purpose'.

 

[Naomi25]

I guess a lot is clarified if a particular passage is understood in its context of speaking of either the church or of Israel.

Well...therein itself lies a great deal of debate!

 

[farouk]

Well...therein itself lies a great deal of debate!

Yes, indeed; but context and grammar can help!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sometimes I wonder if, when it comes to the end and we all get to know 'who was right'...we won't find out that we all were...sort of! And by that I mean, perhaps each 'end times' scenario has a bit of truth in it, and then flies off the handle! Perhaps it's just that we haven't managed to harmonize them yet?
Of course, that's unlikely...but yes, sometimes I do wonder how so many 'honest to goodness Christians' could be wrong about such a major doctrine. And by major, I'm not talking Salvation wise...I'm just saying that the return of Christ is an exciting, important topic. But, even if it turns out that the Dispensationalists were wrong...or us Amillennialists...I know we're all still Christians. But ONE of us has to have it pretty darn wrong! So I can't help wondering if there's a more...middle ground. But then...I start wondering if that's where compromise is...and compromise is a dirty word!
Sometimes I think too much! Maybe that's my problem

Oh, yeah, this was me. You remind me of me before I understood that passages, especially in the prophets, move forward and backwards and forward again in time.

I was really confused, mainly because some verses seemed to suggest a removal of the righteous first and some verses seemed to suggest a removal of the wicked first and I wanted to know which it was.

They used to argue, just like we do, about where Jesus would come from, because scripture seemed to suggest He would come from three different places. Turns out...the men who said He would come from Egypt were right. Also turns out the men who said scripture plainly said He would come from Nazareth were right. Also turns out those who said He would come from Bethlehem were right.

So your thought that maybe we all have some of it right is not as impossible as you think.

Revelation speaks of two reapings of the earth. The first one sounds pleasant (or at the very least, mild.) The second one sounds terrifying.

And yes, some verses, on either side, are placed by men, in time, where they can't fit.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Please bear with me a little...I wrote the OP at the beginning of last year, so, it's not that fresh in my mind!

It's not so much that I'm 'focused' on wrath. Or even that I dispute that God does pour out his wrath upon an ungodly world. It's mostly that it seems to me that the passages Dispensationalists use to try and prove a 7 year period IN WHICH said wrath is poured out upon the earth, those verses seem more like "judgement day" wrath verses. Does that make sense? They seem to be verse that are speaking of salvation or wrath....judgement day wrath or judgement day salvation. Not a stretched out period upon the earth.

So...in answer to your questions, yes, I would say that the flood was a clear 'wrath' judgement upon the earth, as was Sodom and Gomorrah. But, as I said, it's more that the specific 'wrath' verses that are used seem 'that day' specific, rather than 'time period that is protracted for a purpose'.

I'm not even sure it IS a full 7 years. Some verses seem to suggest that time will be cut short...

 

[Keraz]

Sometimes I wonder if, when it comes to the end and we all get to know 'who was right'...we won't find out that we all were...sort of! And by that I mean, perhaps each 'end times' scenario has a bit of truth in it, and then flies off the handle! Perhaps it's just that we haven't managed to harmonize them yet?

Here is a harmonized sequence of end time prophesied events, supported by many scriptures:

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3 It will be the Sixth seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 6:12-17 A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.

The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

In a short while: Isaiah 29:17, all the holy Land will be regenerated and the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in, all born again believers; will gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 They will live in peace and prosperity and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

After a few years: a Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected nation, of great wealth. Gog and his horde will be totally wiped out and it will take seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20

Sometime later, the strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world. Daniel 9:27

After that: the world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force, Zechariah 14:1-2, and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. This starts the Great Tribulation, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’- Christian Israelites who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, are taken to a place of safety for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2b, Revelation 12:14

Then comes the Glorious Return of Jesus: The battle of Armageddon, Jesus destroys the army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan.

The regathering of Christian Israel, all those who have kept faithful. Matthew 24:30-31

The 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus and the resurrected martyrs. Revelation 20:4



The final attack against the holy Land and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:17-21

The Great White Throne judgement, and a New Heaven and a New Earth. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation chapter 21

 

[marks]

Please bear with me a little...I wrote the OP at the beginning of last year, so, it's not that fresh in my mind!

It's not so much that I'm 'focused' on wrath. Or even that I dispute that God does pour out his wrath upon an ungodly world. It's mostly that it seems to me that the passages Dispensationalists use to try and prove a 7 year period IN WHICH said wrath is poured out upon the earth, those verses seem more like "judgement day" wrath verses. Does that make sense? They seem to be verse that are speaking of salvation or wrath....judgement day wrath or judgement day salvation. Not a stretched out period upon the earth.

So...in answer to your questions, yes, I would say that the flood was a clear 'wrath' judgement upon the earth, as was Sodom and Gomorrah. But, as I said, it's more that the specific 'wrath' verses that are used seem 'that day' specific, rather than 'time period that is protracted for a purpose'.

Hi Naomi,

Just noticing this thread, but I wanted to toss in, I'm "pre-trib", not exactly the regulary way, but to your point in Thessalonians, "saves us from the wrath to come", personally, I think this better fits with the wrath of final judgment. Death very neatly saved Paul from the wrath of God upon the world. But Jesus will save all who believe from the final wrath. I don't feel this verse teaches regarding pre-trib rapture, but I believe others do, in so much as any can, without making a straightfoward statement.

While I'm dispensationalist, so-called, in my views, I don't like to bend all the verses many dispensationalists seem to imo.

I think some people do dispensational teachings a huge disservice by trying too hard to force fit Scriptures into their framework.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Nancy]

Ah, Nancy...you're the least "drive a person nuts" person here! So don't worry about it! The forum is where I get all my eschatology talk in too. I do a fair bit of other stuff with hubby and other people, but I'd drive them nuts with all my thoughts/questions on that...so I bring it here to bother you lovely people with instead! So, you're just sharing the burden, that's all!

Ahaha...I'm with you sister...I drive some coo-coo with my thoughts and questions as well! Good I say, get them to think some Thanks for saying I don't drive people nuts, lol.

 

[Copperhead]

But it is true, their interpretation of the time of wrath event Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5 is based... on their Pre-trib Rapture theory. Exactly how that is, is this - since Paul says we the Church are not appointed to that wrath, they apply that as happening during the tribulation upon those not saved, because they think the Church will already be raptured to heaven by then. But the wrath timing Paul is teaching there in 1 Thess.5 is for the 'last day' of this world when Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord" to fight with His army at Armageddon and end the reign of Antichrist. So Paul in 1 Thess.5 was actually teaching us about the events leading up to that final day of this world, when the "day of the Lord" will occur with Jesus' 2nd coming. Peter confirms this also in 2 Peter 3:10, because he showed on that "day of the Lord" is when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth. That means an end to the tribulation and the Antichrist.

The comment I gave was in regards to your statement that the pre-trib position was not taught before 1800. That is not true and I addressed it. You come back with some two step dance around that has nothing to do with what I was responding to.

 

[Copperhead]

It's not so much that I'm 'focused' on wrath. Or even that I dispute that God does pour out his wrath upon an ungodly world. It's mostly that it seems to me that the passages Dispensationalists use to try and prove a 7 year period IN WHICH said wrath is poured out upon the earth, those verses seem more like "judgement day" wrath verses.

Most folks, dispensational or not, get the 7 year period primarily from Daniel 9:27. The trigger being the covenant that is affirmed by the antichrist with Israel. The antichrist being the rider on the white horse of Revelation 6:2. And it closely ties into Isaiah 28:14-15 which is directly linked to Revelation 6:7-8. And Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:18 both show that the covenant will be broken. And it will occur in the middle of the 70th week which is the actual start of the Great Tribulation / Time of Jacob's Trouble.

What I think messes some folks up is the idea that the pre-trib is the trigger of the 7 years / 70th week of Daniel. Not so. The removal of the righteous triggers nothing. But by the redeemed being taken out, then the ball gets rolling since he primary job of the Holy Spirit is to indwell, seal, and preserve the believers is now over. He can then step aside and allow "all hell to break loose" as it were. What triggers the start of that period is the covenant being affirmed by the antichrist / false messiah / man of lawlessness who could not have been revealed until the Holy Spirit stepped aside. As per 2 Thessalonians 2.

It really isn't as complicated as some make it out to be.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

thanks for saying I don't drive people nuts, lol.

She was lying.

 

[Davy]

The comment I gave was in regards to your statement that the pre-trib position was not taught before 1800. That is not true and I addressed it. You come back with some two step dance around that has nothing to do with what I was responding to.

And the rebuttal I gave was from Scripture on how it does not support any... Pre-trib Rapture theory, whether it was dreamed up by the Jesuits in the 14th century or later by John Darby and the Irvingite church.

 

[Davy]

Most folks, dispensational or not, get the 7 year period primarily from Daniel 9:27. The trigger being the covenant that is affirmed by the antichrist with Israel. The antichrist being the rider on the white horse of Revelation 6:2. And it closely ties into Isaiah 28:14-15 which is directly linked to Revelation 6:7-8. And Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:18 both show that the covenant will be broken. And it will occur in the middle of the 70th week which is the actual start of the Great Tribulation / Time of Jacob's Trouble.

What I think messes some folks up is the idea that the pre-trib is the trigger of the 7 years / 70th week of Daniel. Not so. The removal of the righteous triggers nothing. But by the redeemed being taken out, then the ball gets rolling since he primary job of the Holy Spirit is to indwell, seal, and preserve the believers is now over. He can then step aside and allow "all hell to break loose" as it were. What triggers the start of that period is the covenant being affirmed by the antichrist / false messiah / man of lawlessness who could not have been revealed until the Holy Spirit stepped aside. As per 2 Thessalonians 2.

It really isn't as complicated as some make it out to be.

It really isn't all that complicated, for there is not even one Bible Scripture that supports man's idea of Jesus coming prior to the tribulation to rapture His Church out. The idea that there is, is a total fabrication by men, and those on the doctrine are like the 'drunken that sleep in the night' that Apostle Paul spoke of.

Christ's faithful saints have a JOB to do during the time of great tribulation in our near future, and I'm not talking about pre-trib's fabrication of Jewish trib saints. I'm talking about Christ's faithful Church of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile. Like Paul described in Ephesians 6, we are to make a stand in the "evil day", girded with the armour of God.

But false doctrines like the Pre-trib Rapture theory teach weak brethren to be woosies for Christ, instead of Holy Spirit filled Christian soldiers that are ready to serve Jesus through the coming storm! And when those faithful among His Church are delivered up during the coming tribulation, Jesus told us to not premeditate what we will say in that hour, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak! So yeah, Christ's faithful Church will... remain steadfast during that time, while you weaklings get gathered wheresoever the fowls are gathered, feasting on your flesh like Jesus showed at the end of Luke 17!

 

[Nancy]

She was lying.

Yoo 2 funee

 

[Copperhead]

It really isn't all that complicated, for there is not even one Bible Scripture that supports man's idea of Jesus coming prior to the tribulation to rapture His Church out. The idea that there is, is a total fabrication by men, and those on the doctrine are like the 'drunken that sleep in the night' that Apostle Paul spoke of.

Plenty from both OT and NT to support a removal fo the righteous at the start of or before the Day of the Lord. More than enough to meet the evidentiary requirement of Torah. Most certainly before any judgements or wrath begins.

And who is it that eventually delivers the Gospel to the entire world? Sure isn't believers, 144,000 Hebrews, or the two witnesses. It takes angels to get that done during the Tribulation period.

Actually, the pre-trib position, more than any other, should cause folks to be more diligent than ever to show Yeshua to the world. Also, the idea that the Lord could call the righteous out at any moment is a sobering thought that should motivate believers. The other positions can lead to complacency. Kind of an "oh well, there will be time. When things kick off, then I will get it in gear".

I generally don't worry about the positions others hold on this issue. It is for each to work out for themselves. It is not a condition of salvation. And unlike those who try to find ways to convince believers that some will not be worthy to make the trip, I am fully convinced that even those who are truly trusting in Yeshua will get to go along on the pre-trib removal. It will be great. And at that time, I will not care one bit that anyone held a position different than mine. Well.... at least they did hold a different position.

I get the impression that those who hold other positions just can't wait for the tribulation period to start so they can then spend an inordinate amount of time chiding the pre-trib camp. Boy, that really makes one want to get up in the morning. Sarcasm intended.

 

[Keraz]

I get the impression that those who hold other positions just can't wait for the tribulation period to start so they can then spend an inordinate amount of time chiding the pre-trib camp.

I expect you know that I strongly refute the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church. I just do not see such a thing anywhere in the Bible.

But I don't look forward to 'chiding' the deceived Christians, my motivation is only to help them to at least know that there is a viable and scriptural alternative; the Lord's protection thru it all. As He demonstrated with the three men in the furnace. Isaiah 43:2
What is likely to happen with those who want God to take them outta here is; those with a weak faith may renounce God and everyone who expected tp be 'raptured' won't know what to do when the prophesied disaster strikes.
Also, the Lord will ask them why they failed to discern the scriptures properly.

 

[Copperhead]

Also, the Lord will ask them why they failed to discern the scriptures properly.

I that regard, the question will be asked of every one of us in one way or another. It would be arrogant pride to assume one has discerned everything perfectly.

I think there are many examples regarding the Lord's protection today that make even the tribulation seem pale in comparison. I see the examples of the brothers and sisters in N. Korea. I see the examples of the brothers and sisters in the Sudan. The Lord's protection thru the severe trials they face. Where it is common in N. Korean prisons to kill and eat even children to prevent starvation.

Oh, and I am not sure I agree with how you are using Isaiah 43:2. I do see it as apropos to the GT period, but it specifically says Israel (Jacob) in the preceding verse. That would tie into Jeremiah 30:7. I know, I know, you like the two house / ephramite theory which is another position I don't accept. And just like I see ample evidence of a pre-trib position in the OT as well as the NT, I also see ample evidence that the tribes were commingled before, during, and after the Babylonian exile. Even Anna in the NT knew which tribe she belonged and it was a northern tribe at that. 500 years after the Babylonian exile return and roughly 700 years after the fall of the northern kingdom. And the vast majority of all Jacob who were scattered, though they may not know their tribal identity today, maintained their identity to Jacob (Israel). Those that now want to lay claim to that identity, if it is true, didn't give a rip for centuries about their heritage while the Jewish people maintained their heritage in the midst of pograms, inquisitions, crusades, etc.

But we see it differently. But I don't feel any need to intimidate anyone by putting pictures in their head about how they will feel about these things when they see the Lord because they don't see it my way. It is written that He will wipe away every tear. I am pretty sure that, for various reasons, we all will shed a tear or two over something we overlooked, something we should have done, missed opportunities, failures, etc. No one is so perfect to escape some level of that.

 

[Keraz]

And the vast majority of all Jacob who were scattered, though they may not know their tribal identity today, maintained their identity to Jacob (Israel). Those that now want to lay claim to that identity, if it is true, didn't give a rip for centuries about their heritage while the Jewish people maintained their heritage in the midst of pograms, inquisitions, crusades, etc.

So you do think there are many who have lost their knowledge of their ancestral identity?
Of course this premise is a given, considering todays mingling of races and peoples. For example; I suppose like me in New Zealand, I know my Scottish heritage and my Grandchildren do, but don't care so much about it, only a few more generations and it could be lost.

Therefore our Israelite ancestry is surely lost over 100+ generations, plus the lack of documentation and the main reason: that it was Gods Plan that the House of Israel lose their identity, 1 Kings 12:24, but as Solomon prayed: 1 Kings 8:46-53, if the Israelites in exile turn to the Lord, as we Christians have done; then the Lord will again turn to us and we will receive the Blessings promised.

And just like I see ample evidence of a pre-trib position in the OT as well as the NT

One of us is deceived.
I agree that no one has all the truths of prophecy, most of it will only be fully understood after the events.
However there is coming a day when we will all stand before the Lord in Judgment. We are told that those who teach and promote false doctrines will be more severely judged. Those who have done that won't lose their salvation, but may lose any rewards and be very embarrassed and regretful.