Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

[Copperhead]

One of us is deceived.

I am not sure either of us is "deceived". And using such a term is a bit extreme for this issue. We just see the passages differently and we are influenced differently by extra biblical sources. If we were discussing core doctrines of the faith and we were in diametric opposition, then deception might be in play.

Yes, we probably will be questioned regarding false doctrines. That should be a sobering thought. However, I don't write bible studies or teach formally. Nor promote any educational pedigree. I just discuss these issues with others and present my case. I may disagree with other's positions, but I never question their standing with the Lord. That is way outside my pay grade. So I might not come under as much scrutiny as a formal teacher on these issues. I may look like an idiot standing before the Lord, but quite sure I will not be accused of deception, which by definition is intentional misleading of others.

But another consideration. One might be quite sincere in their belief on an issue, but at the same time sincerely wrong. That can work both ways.

 

[Enoch111]

And the rebuttal I gave was from Scripture on how it does not support any... Pre-trib Rapture theory, whether it was dreamed up by the Jesuits in the 14th century or later by John Darby and the Irvingite church.

There is no biblical rebuttal for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

And it has nothing to do with Jesuits, Darbyites, Irvingites. or anyone else. That is just propaganda, putting the focus on men instead of Scripture.

The Tribulation and Great Tribulation have nothing to do with the Church. Yet this fallacy continues to be promoted over and over again.

 

[Keraz]

There is no biblical rebuttal for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

There is no Biblical support for the pre-trib rapture.
Yet the false idea of people going to live in heaven continues to be promoted by the confused and the believers in fallacies.

 

[Keraz]

But another consideration. One might be quite sincere in their belief on an issue, but at the same time sincerely wrong. That can work both ways.

Thanks for your nice post CH.
I believe the end times are practically upon us, so I do see that it may cause problems for those who have a wrong idea of what God has planned for His people. Up until now false beliefs haven't been a problem, provided we all maintain our faith and trust in Jesus.
But when things do happen, it will be that much harder for those who don't know what to expect next.

Those who grip onto false beliefs, despite being shown proofs of their error, display what is called cognitive dissonance. Which amounts to a practical inability to change.
Which is just what Isaiah 29:9-12 tells us will happen; Verse 9, If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused...… REBible.

 

[Copperhead]

There is no Biblical support for the pre-trib rapture.
Yet the false idea of people going to live in heaven continues to be promoted by the confused and the believers in fallacies.

So then, were Isaiah and King David both pulling our leg along with Yeshua?

And Hosea says that Yeshua would return to His place because of the rejection by Jacob (Israel). And would not return until they acknowledge that offense and turn to Him. Along with that, Enoch said that He comes with 10 thousands of His saints.

So it would seem that saints (only redeemed people are considered saints) do at some point, for some period of time, live with Yeshua where He is with the Father. At least till He returns to set up shop here on earth then we continue to live with Him where He is, which is on earth.

My wife may consider me a confused individual, but I do know what these guys wrote to tell us about these things and I don't see them as fallacies, but instead count on Yeshua to honor what was said.

 

[Davy]

Plenty from both OT and NT to support a removal fo the righteous at the start of or before the Day of the Lord. More than enough to meet the evidentiary requirement of Torah. Most certainly before any judgements or wrath begins.

And who is it that eventually delivers the Gospel to the entire world? Sure isn't believers, 144,000 Hebrews, or the two witnesses. It takes angels to get that done during the Tribulation period.

Actually, the pre-trib position, more than any other, should cause folks to be more diligent than ever to show Yeshua to the world. Also, the idea that the Lord could call the righteous out at any moment is a sobering thought that should motivate believers. The other positions can lead to complacency. Kind of an "oh well, there will be time. When things kick off, then I will get it in gear".

I generally don't worry about the positions others hold on this issue. It is for each to work out for themselves. It is not a condition of salvation. And unlike those who try to find ways to convince believers that some will not be worthy to make the trip, I am fully convinced that even those who are truly trusting in Yeshua will get to go along on the pre-trib removal. It will be great. And at that time, I will not care one bit that anyone held a position different than mine. Well.... at least they did hold a different position.

I get the impression that those who hold other positions just can't wait for the tribulation period to start so they can then spend an inordinate amount of time chiding the pre-trib camp. Boy, that really makes one want to get up in the morning. Sarcasm intended.

Not even one solid piece of Scripture evidence. If there were, you would have posted it by now, and not only here, but all over other posts where you present that argument. I only need reference Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[Davy]

There is no biblical rebuttal for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

And it has nothing to do with Jesuits, Darbyites, Irvingites. or anyone else. That is just propaganda, putting the focus on men instead of Scripture.

The Tribulation and Great Tribulation have nothing to do with the Church. Yet this fallacy continues to be promoted over and over again.

There is no Biblical proof for a pre-trib rapture. All you guys do is push fiat affirmations, which an affirmation is like making a statement of truth, without it not having been proven. And a fiat is like a proclamation that comes out of nowhere.

 

[Copperhead]

Not even one solid piece of Scripture evidence. If there were, you would have posted it by now, and not only here, but all over other posts where you present that argument. I only need reference Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

Try Isaiah 26. The entire chapter is regarding the Day of the Lord. Look especially at the last few verses. Compare with John 14:2. I would post but I am mobile at work now.

 

[Enoch111]

And a fiat is like a proclamation that comes out of nowhere.

If it comes from God, that is not "nowhere". Christ Himself made that proclamation before He was crucified.

 

[Enoch111]

There is no Biblical support for the pre-trib rapture.
Yet the false idea of people going to live in heaven continues to be promoted by the confused and the believers in fallacies.

The saints who passed away are ALREADY living in Heaven, and after their resurrection they will continue to live in Heaven (in the New Jerusalem). Please see Hebrews 12:22-24.

 

[Keraz]

The saints who passed away are ALREADY living in Heaven, and after their resurrection they will continue to live in Heaven

Daniel 12:13 isn't. He awaits the Great White Throne Judgment, along with all the rest of humankind who have ever lived.

As for the 'saints' returning with Jesus, this is refuted by Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31 and Revelation 19:14, that clearly state it is the armies of heaven who accompany Jesus at His Return. Some other verses mis-translate 'hagios' as saints, but it just means 'holy ones'; angels, that is confirmed by this 3 proofs.

Hebrews 12:22-24 refers to our spiritual condition, we are enrolled in heaven, but we never live there.
Take note of Hebrews 12:7-8, where it says if we avoid trials and testing, [chastisement or discipline] then we are not true children of God. You want to get away from the wrath and punishment of God, as He destroys His enemies. It will be a time of testing for all and many will fall away. 1 Peter 4:12 But we are told to stand firm in our faith and call upon the Name of the Lord for His protection thru it all. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
Time to renounce the 'rapture to heaven' lie and embrace the truth of God's Plan for the end times.

 

[Copperhead]

Well, no one is holding you back. If you want to go thru the calamities coming upon the earth and face the great white throne judgement, that is indeed a choice you can make.

 

[Keraz]

Well, no one is holding you back. If you want to go thru the calamities coming upon the earth and face the great white throne judgement, that is indeed a choice you can make.

You too, will have no choice in this.
EVERYONE who has ever lived, great and small, dumb or wise, deceived or informed, etc, will stand before God at His GWT Judgment.
2 Peter 3:12 says we should pray to hasten on the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, there is no escape from it for anyone.

Note: the DoL is at least 7 years before the GWT.

 

[quietthinker]

The nature of deception is that those deceived are oblivious to it! Paradigms that spawn substitutions for truth are akin to addictions and create driven men. Leave them said Jesus, they are blind guides.

 

[Copperhead]

You too, will have no choice in this.
EVERYONE who has ever lived, great and small, dumb or wise, deceived or informed, etc, will stand before God at His GWT Judgment.
2 Peter 3:12 says we should pray to hasten on the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, there is no escape from it for anyone.

Note: the DoL is at least 7 years before the GWT.

No, I do have a choice and I made it....

John 5:24 (NKJV) Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The only judgment I have to face is the bema judgment of rewards not the krino prosecutorial judgment of the GWT where the key condemnation is about not being written in the book of life.

 

[Davy]

Try Isaiah 26. The entire chapter is regarding the Day of the Lord. Look especially at the last few verses. Compare with John 14:2. I would post but I am mobile at work now.

That's just how you've been wrongly taught. Even the very first verse in Isaiah 26 is about God gathering Judah back to the land, and you just throw it away when you get to those last few verses. That's what Apostle Paul referred to about the deceived being 'drunken in the night' in 1 Thess.5. The pre-trib rapture doctrine of man has you drunk.

This is also easily seen in that John 14 Scripture with their false doctrine about the abodes ("mansions" in KJV) Jesus promised His disciples, which are actually about the chambers on earth at the millennial sanctuary of the future world to come (that is where Ezekiel 40-47 shows The Father's "house" will be).

How strange it also is with the pre-trib school accepting that John 14 is for the Church when our Lord Jesus was speaking to His disciples, but they flat reject our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse signs of the end when He was speaking to His disciples! They claim He meant that for the Jews, and not for His Church. You ought to be smart enough to figure that contradiction out. The reason they don't like His Olivet discourse is because that is one of the places where our Lord Jesus made it emphatic that His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).


And when you continue in Isaiah, God makes it plain that He is speaking of gathering Israel back to the land, even within those topics about destruction of His enemies.

Isa 27:12-13
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
KJV

 

[Davy]

If it comes from God, that is not "nowhere". Christ Himself made that proclamation before He was crucified.

You just contradicted God and His Word, and didn't even know it...

Ezek 13:19-20
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
KJV

God said that against those preachers of that false 'fly away' doctrine you're on. It is not a doctrine from Him. That's why no one can find any evidence of the doctrine preached in the Church prior to the 1800's. All Churches held to a post-tribulational return of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church for over 1,800 years. Then in the 1830's Britain the Edward Irving movement springs up, then Darby changes his position to pre-trib and begins teaching the doctrine. Then the charlatan Cyrus Scofield, et al, brings the doctrine to America, and with funds from New York bankers creates a study Bible to push the theory on an unsuspecting Christian public. It's a doctrine from Christ's enemies, not from Him.

Even when they preach to 'fly away' while abusing the Luke 17 Scripture, with their creation of a whole "Left-behind" ideology, when Jesus was actually warning AGAINST being the first one taken in that Scripture, ought to easily reveal who is behind that false pre-trib rapture theory. But when one is 'drunken in the night', like Apostle Paul showed, that kind of common sense understanding just goes out the window.

 

[Enoch111]

God said that against those preachers of that false 'fly away' doctrine you're on. It is not a doctrine from Him.

This is a good example of misusing and abusing the Word of God. The doctrine of the Rapture is a Bible doctrine (John 14:1-3; 1 Thess 4:13-18 and several other passages), so it you who is making God a liar.

 

[Davy]

This is a good example of misusing and abusing the Word of God. The doctrine of the Rapture is a Bible doctrine (John 14:1-3; 1 Thess 4:13-18 and several other passages), so it you who is making God a liar.

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
KJV

It's very obvious the pre-trib rapture doctrine you are on is a LIE. God shows that right there too. You can't even bring yourself to read it.

 

[Copperhead]

That's just how you've been wrongly taught. Even the very first verse in Isaiah 26 is about God gathering Judah back to the land, and you just throw it away when you get to those last few verses.

And you err. the first verse does not talk about Judah being gathered back to the land. It says a song will be sung in the land of Judah.

The next verse talks about the gates being opened and the righteous nation entering in. In Hebrew eschatology that speaks of the gates of heaven and the redeemed entering in. And it has its fulfillment on a feast day. And that happens in "that day" of verse 1, which is a reference to "Day of the Lord" throughout scripture. Judah or Israel is not a righteous nation, but a holy or set apart nation. Only the redeemed of Yeshua constitute a righteous nation.

Just like in verse 17, the birth pains which are referenced throughout scripture as the Day of the Lord. Jeremiah tells us that at the birth pains, the nation will be born in a day from Zion. The modern state of Israel was not born out of Zion (Jerusalem). It didn't have control of Zion till 1967. But the righteous nation of the redeemed in Yeshua was conceived in Zion (Jerusalem) on Shavuot by the Holy Spirit. It will be brought forth or "born" in a day at "that time". That righteous nation of the redeemed is the Body of Messiah which will join with the Head which is Yeshua.

Then verses 19-21 which are a illusion to the removal of the righteous and mirrors the description given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 and is affirmed by Yeshua in John 14.

Isaiah 26 in its entirety speaks of "that day" and is quite clear that the righteous nation will enter into thru the gates and that is detailed in those final verses. Judah or Israel or both combined is not a righteous nation, it is a holy or set apart nation. Only the redeemed in Yeshua are considered righteous and a royal nation per Peter.

No, I am pretty sure I have not been wrongly taught.