All the ELECT please stand up

[SovereignGrace]

I couldn't agree more fully with the above. This is the part of reform theology...plus the process of sanctification which you alluded to earlier, that I completely gel with.
Secondly, I commend you for the manner in which you engage others on this forum. You lack the arrogance which seems to emanate from other members of the CFC.

@Preacher4Truth is not the mean guy you think he is. He may challenge you, but he is not the mean guy you think he is. He is just a hard debater.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am glad you posted this because I was about to question that post to. I am convinced that Paul's description of himself in that passage was of his former religious but unsaved self.

I still believe this was present tense. He was describing himelf post-conversion.

Paul spoke about how he thought he was doing God's will. He thought he was keeping the Law. He even said he kept it blameless. Granted, blameless does not mean perfect. One could observe the Law and still die lost.

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.[Philippians 3:1-11]

Paul never considered himself to be of the status of @CharismaticLady, and yet, he wrote 13 NT books, ascended to heaven once, spoke with the Christ, and still, he never claimed he did not commit willful sins.

 

[brakelite]

I still believe this was present tense. He was describing himelf post-conversion.

Paul spoke about how he thought he was doing God's will. He thought he was keeping the Law. He even said he kept it blameless. Granted, blameless does not mean perfect. One could observe the Law and still die lost.

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.[Philippians 3:1-11]

Paul never considered himself to be of the status of @CharismaticLady, and yet, he wrote 13 NT books, ascended to heaven once, spoke with the Christ, and still, he never claimed he did not commit willful sins.

Here is a quote from someone you may personally draw away from, but take these words at face value...
The sanctification of the church is God's object in all His dealings with His people. He has chosen them from eternity, that they might be holy. He gave His Son to die for them, that they might be sanctified through obedience to the truth, divested of all the littleness of self. From them He requires a personal work, a personal surrender. God can be honored by those who profess to believe in Him, only as they are conformed to His image and controlled by His Spirit. Then, as witnesses for the Saviour, they may make known what divine grace has done for them....
Those who would gain the blessing of sanctification must first learn the meaning of self-sacrifice. The cross of Christ is the central pillar on which hangs the “far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory.” “If any man will come after Me,” Christ says, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.” 2 Corinthians 4:17; Matthew 16:24. It is the fragrance of our love for our fellow men that reveals our love for God. It is patience in service that brings rest to the soul. It is through humble, diligent, faithful toil that the welfare of Israel is promoted. God upholds and strengthens the one who is willing to follow in Christ's way.
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.
None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.
So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing.” “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

 

[brakelite]

The apostle Paul had been caught up to the third heaven and had seen and heard things that could not be uttered, and yet his unassuming statement is: “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after.” Philippians 3:12. Let the angels of heaven write of Paul's victories in fighting the good fight of faith. Let heaven rejoice in his steadfast tread heavenward, and that, keeping the prize in view, he counts every other consideration dross. Angels rejoice to tell his triumphs, but Paul makes no boast of his attainments. The attitude of Paul is the attitude that every follower of Christ should take as he urges his way onward in the strife for the immortal crown.
Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, they will not boast of sinlessness. “If we,” says John, not separating himself from his brethren, “say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:8, 10, 9.
There are those who profess holiness, who declare that they are wholly the Lord's, who claim a right to the promises of God, while refusing to render obedience to His commandments. These transgressors of the law claim everything that is promised to the children of God; but this is presumption on their part, for John tells us that true love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth, to make a profession of faith in Christ, to believe that Jesus is no impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. “He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments,” John wrote, “is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.” “He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him.” 1 John 2:4, 5; 3:24.
John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. “Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins,” he said, “and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.” 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law....
….True sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, perfect conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to God through obedience to the truth. Our conscience must be purged from dead works to serve the living God. We are not yet perfect; but it is our privilege to cut away from the entanglements of self and sin, and advance to perfection. Great possibilities, high and holy attainments, are placed within the reach of all.

 

[brakelite]

@Preacher4Truth is not the mean guy you think he is. He may challenge you, but he is not the mean guy you think he is. He is just a hard debater.

I wouldn't describe him as mean. Hard debater, yes. Could he entertain the concept or idea that he could be wrong? Never. Why? Because he's chosen. God's elect. Once you are in the club, a member of the inner sanctum and above the goyim and hoi poloi of this world, then you can say and do things that the untouchables dare not reproach right?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I wouldn't describe him as mean. Hard debater, yes. Could he entertain the concept or idea that he could be wrong? Never. Why? Because he's chosen. God's elect. Once you are in the club, a member of the inner sanctum and above the goyim and hoi poloi of this world, then you can say and do things that the untouchables dare not reproach right?

Brother, all the saved are the elect of God. No one is saved outside of God choosing them. You can believe in corporate election, foreseen faith election, conditional election(look them up to get a better understanding of what they teach please..conditional election may be another name for foreseen faith election), or unconditional election(what we believe) and you will see that all of them have God choosing those who are saved. It's just that all arrive at God electing sinners via different approaches.

No one can say they are saved and not chosen by God, and chosen means elected.

If you would like, you could PM me and we can discuss this in private. Maybe I can answer some of your questions you may have in regards to the TULIP and what and why you object to them. If not, I truly understand.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I wouldn't describe him as mean. Hard debater, yes. Could he entertain the concept or idea that he could be wrong? Never. Why? Because he's chosen. God's elect. Once you are in the club, a member of the inner sanctum and above the goyim and hoi poloi of this world, then you can say and do things that the untouchables dare not reproach right?

Actually, years ago I tangled with @Preacher4Truth on another Christian forum. I was a believer in free will at that time, but there were some things I wondered about. On 6/14/2012 I lost my mommy to a blood clot. I posted it on the prayers forum. He was the only one on that site(IIRC) that actually reached out to me via PM. I never forgot that, either. None who held to my free will beliefs at that time PM'd me. Not one. That stuck with me. It was about a year later I really began praying for God to reveal the truths to me that were contained in the bible. I came to believe in reformed theology.

I realize everybody's study is different.

 

[brakelite]

Unlimited 'Free-will' theology isn't the only alternative to full on unconditional predestination/election.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Unlimited 'Free-will' theology isn't the only alternative to full on unconditional predestination/election.

Please expound.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I wouldn't describe him as mean. Hard debater, yes. Could he entertain the concept or idea that he could be wrong? Never. Why? Because he's chosen. God's elect. Once you are in the club, a member of the inner sanctum and above the goyim and hoi poloi of this world, then you can say and do things that the untouchables dare not reproach right?

Could he entertain the concept or idea that he could be wrong? Yes. He was once a free will believer like I was. Yet, now he holds to the doctrines of grace. So yes to that question.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Correct ‘evil’ by putting ‘even’ in that post. Thanks. I didn’t catch that.

That is a Christian. Paul was showing himself a sinner saved by grace. He said the same in 1 Timothy 1:15. We all, even you, have sin. It’s in the flesh until it’s made new in the likeness of the Christ.

You do know that Paul had been a Zealot Pharisee persecuting the church and was the worst sinner of all the apostles when Jesus found him, and changed him. Jesus came to take away and free us from sin, and in Him there is no sin. Thus Paul has been reborn.

It looks like you believe because we live in a decaying body, that we can't possibly be freed from sin until this body is changed. Ah vey!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Unlimited 'Free-will' theology isn't the only alternative to full on unconditional predestination/election.

Are you referring to libertarian free will? If so, then why call it free will?

Free Will:

--voluntary choice or decision
--freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Libertarian Free Will:

Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to the Pocket Dictionary of Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion (InterVarsity Press, 2002), libertarian free will is defined as “in ethics and metaphysics, the view that human beings sometimes can will more than one possibility. According to this view, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different.” In the libertarian free will paradigm, the power of contrary choice reigns supreme. Without this ability to choose otherwise, libertarian free will proponents will claim that man cannot be held morally responsible for his actions.
Either way, these two views have wills exercised by one's self. Remember, the will is never free. There is always something that influences the will. If you hate pickles, there is nothing in your will that can make you like them. If you hate mayonnaise, there is no amount of exerted will that will make you like it.

Look at a lion for instance. If you place a bale of hay and a chunk of meat in front of it, which will it choose? The meat. Why? It's nature determines it likes meat and will never choose the hay. Just like a cow. Place the same two things in front of it and which will it choose? The hay, because its nature determines it to choose the hay over the meat.

Man freely makes choices, but those choices are confined to their nature. Its like the person in a 6'X9' jail cell. They freely move inside the cell, but can not freely move outside of it. The bars confine them to that cell. That is the same concept with fallen man. They have a fallen nature, that has caused their will to be fallen too. The will is confined to sin and self. That is why the Christ said "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."[John 6:44] Why can't someone come to Him unless drawn? Their nature, their will, precludes them from doing so. In Romans 8:5-9 we see that those who are lost are at enmity with God, are hostile with Him. Those who are in the flesh are the lost. They 1)have their minds set upon the flesh, 2) are hostile towards God, 3) can not please God. Why can't they please God? And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.[Hebrews 11:6] The lost hate God, are devoid of faith, and can not please Him. That is why God must first quicken them[Ephesians 1:5] and then they can exercise their God-given faith.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You do know that Paul had been a Zealot Pharisee persecuting the church and was the worst sinner of all the apostles when Jesus found him, and changed him. Jesus came to take away and free us from sin, and in Him there is no sin. Thus Paul has been reborn.

Yes. But that does not negate the fact that he wrote in the present tense in describing himself.

It looks like you believe because we live in a decaying body, that we can't possibly be freed from sin until this body is changed. Ah vey!

The bible avers that very thing and I believe it. So should you my friend.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You are the one who is taking it out of context. You will not except this because you then have to concede that you have committed willful sins since being saved.

In Romans 7 do you always start at verse 14, when 13 would show you the reason it is not a Christian. Jesus takes away our sin. The person in Romans 7 still has sin. Look at the contrast when you read chapter 8

 

[SovereignGrace]

In Romans 7 do you always start at verse 14, when 13 would show you the reason it is not a Christian. Jesus takes away our sin. The person in Romans 7 still has sin. Look at the contrast when you read chapter 8

But he also said the same thing in 1 Timothy 1:15. He said he was the foremost of all sinners. He was speaking in the present tense, too.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes. But that does not negate the fact that he used present tense verbs in describing himself.



The bible avers that very thing and I believe it. So should you my friend.

Present tense verbs? Is that what's tripped you up.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Present tense verbs? Is that what's tripped you up.

I edited it after you quoted it. I said Paul wrote in the present tense when he was writing Romans 7:14-25 and 1 Timothy 1:15.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Present tense verbs? Is that what's tripped you up.

And no, that's not got me tripped up.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I still believe this was present tense. He was describing himelf post-conversion.

Paul spoke about how he thought he was doing God's will. He thought he was keeping the Law. He even said he kept it blameless. Granted, blameless does not mean perfect. One could observe the Law and still die lost.

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.[Philippians 3:1-11]

Paul never considered himself to be of the status of @CharismaticLady, and yet, he wrote 13 NT books, ascended to heaven once, spoke with the Christ, and still, he never claimed he did not commit willful sins.

Paul wanted us to be like him and have a pure conscience. I have a pure conscience, so I am of the status of Paul. If you think that is the worst of sinners and he can have a pure conscience at the same time, again you must be reading out of context. Yikes!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Paul wanted us to be like him and have a pure conscience. I have a pure conscience, so I am of the status of Paul. If you think that is the worst of sinners and he can have a pure conscience at the same time, again you must be reading out of context. Yikes!

One of us is reading it out of context, that's for sure...