LUKE 3:16 BAPTISM OF FIRE

[bbyrd009]

Any Samaritans or Romans or Muslims in There, iyo?
. Ty

Ah ok, that's all i needed to know i guess

Hello
The church referred to as the body can not be found in scripture before Paul. The church was referred to as the church of God which Paul persecuted (1 Corinthians 15:9). The Gentiles as the body of Christ was a mystery revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:6).

But of course we mostly accuse them of being in a cult even right now today, huh

 

[bbyrd009]

You appear to have taken some lessons from Dave L on how to completely ignore someone else's argument, LoL.

No problem, Doug. To each his own.

thought you were having a convo eh?

 

[bbyrd009]

Actually the baptism of fire is a purging of our souls from the iniquities and impurities that defile us so that we might become holy vessels of honour for the Lord. Either now or at judgment. (actually both if we go to God for this)

Our God is a consuming fire. (This is not a bad thing) God tests us, tries us, purifies us with fire. Whatever is of eternal value passes through the fire...purged.

Our God abides in the light and all who come to Him must be purged from impurities. Like the coal of fire that touched the lips of Isaiah so that he might speak pure words. And our own judgment whereby we shall all be salted with fire. The fire will reveal our works..of what kind they are.

Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Am i deja vuing, or didn't we just do this exchange like yesterday, starting at the "fire is..." comment?

 

[Enoch111]

You have him saying that Jesus was going to baptize those who would believe in Him in the Holy Spirit, and then turn around and burn them in the unquenchable fire of His wrath. That doesn't make any sense.

And that is not how that passage should be interpreted.

FOR BELIEVERS: Baptism with the Holy Ghost

FOR UNBELIEVERS: Baptism with unquenchable fire (Hell)

So John the Baptist was clearly demarcating the difference between the saved and the lost. Christ did the same in Mark 16:15,16: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Hidden In Him]

thought you were having a convo eh?

LoL! Kinda like you're expecting a pitch but you get one in the dirt instead.

At least it didn't hit me in the face, which is something I should probably be grateful for.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So John the Baptist was clearly demarcating the difference between the saved and the lost. Christ did the same in Mark 16:15,16: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Absolutely. Doug has John speaking to all of Israel - both saved and lost - in this passage, but the context suggests John was speaking directly to those receiving his baptism. This was not a meaningless event. It was receiving baptism from a voice crying in the wilderness to make way for the coming of the Lord; a precursor to receiving Christ's baptism, since John pointed to Jesus as the One who's sandals he wasn't even worthy to loosen.

I've heard arguments about Pentecost being or not being the start of the church before, but I've never related to them very well. I could give supports for how Jesus Himself referred to the church in terms that place its existence well before Pentecost, but I suppose I will wait until the discussion comes up again.

 

[amadeus]

Fire is associated with the wrath of God.

The baptism of fire is the pouring out of the wrath of God.

Jesus has saved us as well from the coming wrath.

Yes, but look at what our friend Episkopos posted:

Actually the baptism of fire is a purging of our souls from the iniquities and impurities that defile us so that we might become holy vessels of honour for the Lord. Either now or at judgment. (actually both if we go to God for this)

Our God is a consuming fire. (This is not a bad thing) God tests us, tries us, purifies us with fire. Whatever is of eternal value passes through the fire...purged.

Our God abides in the light and all who come to Him must be purged from impurities. Like the coal of fire that touched the lips of Isaiah so that he might speak pure words. And our own judgment whereby we shall all be salted with fire. The fire will reveal our works..of what kind they are.

Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

The wrath of God and the consuming fire which God is... Consider:

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:24

The sword from other places is identified as the Word of God or Jesus. It is the Word of God which prevents us from entering in so as to partake of that other better tree, the Tree of Life. To enter in we must be ready, that is prepared. Consider these verses:

"And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace."Dan 3:20-23

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Dan 3:25

So there they stood without harm with whom? And what happened to the strongest soldiers of the king who only approached too close to the hot flames? Remembering as our brother reminded us "God is a consuming fire" [Heb 12:29] But that same fire that killed the soldiers only burned off the binding ropes of the three Hebrews and that same fire burned in the bush seen by Moses with out burning it up.

I suggest that we all need to go through that purging fire which is God or the Word of God to be purified, but if there is nothing "good" [only God is good per Mark 10:18] within those approaching the fire or trying to go into the Tree of Life they, like Nebuchadnezzar's soldiers will suffer death for all that is are in consumed. This is the baptism of fire already set up by God in Genesis for anyone who was properly prepared, for anyone who approached in the right Spirit. The fire would burn up the things that were not good leaving a purified believer.

God's wrath is their for those who approached foolishly without the proper attire... There is the left hand of God as opposed to the right hand of God. Both are fire, one is destruction and final death while the other is cleansing and Life.

As our friend @bbyrd009 might have put it instead of choosing the Life more abundantly which Jesus was/is [the fire of the right hand of God] many have many chosen rather Death more abundantly [the fire of the left hand of God].

 

[bbyrd009]

LoL! Kinda like you're expecting a pitch but you get one in the dirt instead.

At least it didn't hit me in the face, which is something I should probably be grateful for.

Ha!
i guess Bc that is where he was aiming?
rofl

Absolutely. Doug has John speaking to all of Israel - both saved and lost - in this passage, but the context suggests John was speaking directly to those receiving his baptism. This was not a meaningless event. It was receiving baptism from a voice crying in the wilderness to make way for the coming of the Lord; a precursor to receiving Christ's baptism, since John pointed to Jesus as the One who's sandals he wasn't even worthy to loosen.

I've heard arguments about Pentecost being or not being the start of the church before, but I've never related to them very well. I could give supports for how Jesus Himself referred to the church in terms that place its existence well before Pentecost, but I suppose I will wait until the discussion comes up again.

Isaiah or one of those guys has a Temple that was um never built, right

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, but look at what our friend Episkopos posted:


The wrath of God and the consuming fire which God is... Consider:

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:24

The sword from other places is identified as the Word of God or Jesus. It is the Word of God which prevents us from entering in so as to partake of that other better tree, the Tree of Life. To enter in we must be ready, that is prepared. Consider these verses:

"And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace."Dan 3:20-23

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Dan 3:25

So there they stood without harm with whom? And what happened to the strongest soldiers of the king who only approached too close to the hot flames? Remembering as our brother reminded us "God is a consuming fire" [Heb 12:29] But that same fire that killed the soldiers only burned off the binding ropes of the three Hebrews and that same fire burned in the bush seen by Moses with out burning it up.

I suggest that we all need to go through that purging fire which is God or the Word of God to be purified, but if there is nothing "good" [only God is good per Mark 10:18] within those approaching the fire or trying to go into the Tree of Life they, like Nebuchadnezzar's soldiers will suffer death for all that is are in consumed. This is the baptism of fire already set up by God in Genesis for anyone who was properly prepared, for anyone who approached in the right Spirit. The fire would burn up the things that were not good leaving a purified believer.

God's wrath is their for those who approached foolishly without the proper attire... There is the left hand of God as opposed to the right hand of God. Both are fire, one is destruction and final death while the other is cleansing and Life.

As our friend @bbyrd009 might have put it instead of choosing the Life more abundantly which Jesus was/is [the fire of the right hand of God] many have many chosen rather Death more abundantly [the fire of the left hand of God].

Very excellent!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is the first place I flew to this morning when I could. To read Amadeus post again.

We are all going to face Gods fire. Its a purging. For those who face that fire now, when they face His brightness when He comes again they will be able to stand. These might suffer some loss, but they will stand. They faced trial and testing after they met Him and before they physically died. Over the course of their life with Him here.

But then it says some will be saved as through fire. It doesn't sound really good exactly for them. It sounds to me like they will stand but...will enter with no...umm...coin of the realm. Like, they'll enter, but as paupers. Not just paupers, but with not much treasure stored up in heaven?

So its sort of a matter of WHEN we face that fire. Now? (Judgement begins with the house of God) or later (saved but as if through fire).

To face the fires of His testing now is like...the fire is gentle and takes away what can't remain. It doesn't feel so gentle sometimes but I think He really is being gentle with us as He prepares us for bearing the weight of His glory.

So, we face His fire of testing now, or we face it only a little now and face it more all at once later. Because we must be purified at some point or we won't enter at all.

You can see I'm struggling a little with understanding this. But I'm much less apt to feel sorry for myself in any further testing here and now and to instead face it with joy, knowing its producing eternal treasure. Treasure that can't corrupt or be eaten by moths.

Which takes me to that odd verse about how it will be better for Sodom on the day of judgement than it will be for some others...its a curious verse. It will be better for those like Sodom, who never said they could see than it will be for those who say they can see but can't...if you hadn't said you could see, you would have no sin, but since you said you can see, your sin remains.

How odd it seems sometimes. I wish I could see it all more clearly. It begins to appear as if those who are told they are headed for hell will fare better than the ones SAYING it...

Here's an odd thing from biology. We see upside down. Literally. But there is something in the brain that flips the image. It does it so fast that we aren't aware of information going to our eye upside down, but it is entering upside down. It has something to do with the eye being curved.

And in a spiritual sense, this makes some odd sense. Because we see upside down there also and flip the image, so that what appears to be is not so...

And as usual, I will make no sense to anyone and should not post this but I will anyway.

 

[Doug]

Hello
The church referred to as the body can not be found in scripture before Paul. The church was referred to as the church of God which Paul persecuted (1 Corinthians 15:9). The Gentiles as the body of Christ was a mystery revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:6).

The body of Christ began before Pentecost, when the Lord broke bread, and then said to His disciples, "Take and eat. This is my body broken for you." Eating of the body of Christ in "communion" represented that they were all part of the body of Christ together, and responsible to one another as members of one body, just as Paul discussed in 1 Corinthians 11. Paul alluded in Chapter 11 to the original practice handed down by Christ, and then in Chapter 12 went on to describe in great detail the church as Christ's body, being many members yet one body of believers. He merely amplified on the teaching Christ Himself instituted.

Hello
I was addressing your argument to some degree

You are saying that the body of Christ existed at the time of the Lord's supper and I was saying it did not, the church of God did, which was comprised of those who believed the gospel of the coming David kingdom promised Israel.

Paul did indeed speak of the communion of the body of Christ in relating that to how the Corinthians were behaving when they came to eat together. This is not what Jesus was speaking of at the last supper; Jesus was speaking of his sacrifice for the new testament which was for the transgressions of Israel under the first testament.

The difference was that only those who believed the gospel of the grace of God that Paul preached in this dispensation formed the body of Christ. Those who believed Peter and the apostles were in Christ and were members of the church of God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Paul did indeed speak of the communion of the body of Christ in relating that to how the Corinthians were behaving when they came to eat together. This is not what Jesus was speaking of at the last supper; Jesus was speaking of his sacrifice for the new testament which was for the transgressions of Israel under the first testament.

If this is true, why does Paul transition immediately from discussing partaking of the body of Christ together and observing the custom as Jesus Himself laid it down in Chapter 11 to discussing Christ's body and how they are all responsible to each other in Chapter 12?

 

[Doug]

If this is true, why does Paul transition immediately from discussing partaking of the body of Christ together and observing the custom as Jesus Himself laid it down in Chapter 11 to discussing Christ's body and how they are all responsible to each other in Chapter 12?

Hello
I will try to answer but I must admit I am not clear as to what you are asking.

Paul was not teaching coming together for the Passover meal or for the new testament. The church was to lay aside divisions and be of one mind. The church was instructed by the Lord through revelation to Paul to come together to eat and shew his death til he come. The one bread is the the body of Christ; the cup the communion of the blood (1 Corinthians 10:16).

1 Corinthians 12 is about the administration of the Spirit to the body of Christ.

 

[Doug]

Absolutely. Doug has John speaking to all of Israel - both saved and lost - in this passage, but the context suggests John was speaking directly to those receiving his baptism. This was not a meaningless event. It was receiving baptism from a voice crying in the wilderness to make way for the coming of the Lord; a precursor to receiving Christ's baptism, since John pointed to Jesus as the One who's sandals he wasn't even worthy to loosen.

I've heard arguments about Pentecost being or not being the start of the church before, but I've never related to them very well. I could give supports for how Jesus Himself referred to the church in terms that place its existence well before Pentecost, but I suppose I will wait until the discussion comes up again.

Hello
There are three churches that I find in scripture, none of which began at Pentecost:

1) The church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38) comprised of the congregation of Israel under Moses.

2) The church of God which is all that are sanctified in Christ Jesus. This is the church who Paul persecuted (1 Corinthians 15:9).

3) The church, the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18) as revealed in the epistles of Paul.

 

[farouk]

Absolutely. Doug has John speaking to all of Israel - both saved and lost - in this passage, but the context suggests John was speaking directly to those receiving his baptism. This was not a meaningless event. It was receiving baptism from a voice crying in the wilderness to make way for the coming of the Lord; a precursor to receiving Christ's baptism, since John pointed to Jesus as the One who's sandals he wasn't even worthy to loosen.

I've heard arguments about Pentecost being or not being the start of the church before, but I've never related to them very well. I could give supports for how Jesus Himself referred to the church in terms that place its existence well before Pentecost, but I suppose I will wait until the discussion comes up again.

It's interesting that in Acts disciples of John had to be baptised as Christians, having already been baptised as disciples of John before the Holy Spirit came to indwell.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It's interesting that in Acts disciples of John had to be baptised as Christians, having already been baptised as disciples of John before the Holy Spirit came to indwell.

Yes, well to be baptized by someone was to begin a new life under that person's teachings essentially, so when Christ came they needed to baptized into Him. That's the way I see it anyway, but it's an interesting question.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello
There are three churches that I find in scripture, none of which began at Pentecost:

1) The church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38) comprised of the congregation of Israel under Moses.

2) The church of God which is all that are sanctified in Christ Jesus. This is the church who Paul persecuted (1 Corinthians 15:9).

3) The church, the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18) as revealed in the epistles of Paul.

It's a problem of semantics here, Doug. Essentially the word simply meant "congregation" in the Greek, so you have Christ writing to the church at Sardis, the church at Thyatira, the church at Pergamum, ect. You have Paul writing to the church at Thessalonica, the church at Ephesus, etc. But where the word is used of the entire church as a whole, now you are getting into a theological debate on what exactly constitutes the entire congregation of God. I believe it includes all the saints in Heaven and all the saints on earth, hence all those from the Old Testament times as well as all those from the New, and all who will live and die in Christ from now until He finally returns.

 

[bbyrd009]

Absolutely. Doug has John speaking to all of Israel - both saved and lost - in this passage, but the context suggests John was speaking directly to those receiving his baptism. This was not a meaningless event. It was receiving baptism from a voice crying in the wilderness to make way for the coming of the Lord; a precursor to receiving Christ's baptism, since John pointed to Jesus as the One who's sandals he wasn't even worthy to loosen.

I've heard arguments about Pentecost being or not being the start of the church before, but I've never related to them very well. I could give supports for how Jesus Himself referred to the church in terms that place its existence well before Pentecost, but I suppose I will wait until the discussion comes up again.

I heard pretty early in my walk that everything NT was just OT re-expressed or whatever, and me being me i set out to test it.

The principle seemed sound based upon, nothing new under the sun, ended up being a quite interesting study trying to find some of the twins. OT manna ends up being NT Christ, etc, you know the drill right. Only some of them are a little harder to match up? I mean "Church" is pretty easy...interesting to see whether ppl go with "Israel" or "synagogue" there though, to me. Had more than one pastor go "synagogue" thoug, pretty cringy imo.

I guess you'd go "living stones who were already known?" or something similar? For the bottom deal? Or what? Ty

 

[bbyrd009]

We are all going to face Gods fire.

even the unaccountable, you think? Ha you did say all!

To face the fires of His testing now is like...the fire is gentle and takes away what can't remain. It doesn't feel so gentle sometimes but I think He really is being gentle with us as He prepares us for bearing the weight of His glory.

its along in here somewhere i generally get confused about who we're talkin about i guess. Who is this "us" here again sbg? ty. Not meaning any offense ok, but i'm readin many will be deceived, many will cry LordLord, see. Many will sing When We All Get To Heaven too i guess see

So, we face His fire of testing now, or we face it only a little now and face it more all at once later. Because we must be purified at some point or we won't enter at all.

i tell ya man, when you get a revelation it's like lightning flashing, innit. I hope no one has ever gone up to heaven and the kingdom of heaven is within you are considered in that context. Find The Pearl and come on in!

How odd it seems sometimes. I wish I could see it all more clearly. It begins to appear as if those who are told they are headed for hell will fare better than the ones SAYING it...

"begins to appear?"
Matthew 21:31 Lexicon: "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
I guess it's maybe a little hard to perceive ourselves as the Pharisees in that scenario, huh? But the penitent thief is them i guess. Not a bad idea to wherever you Read "Pharisee" just insert "me" imo

if you hadn't said you could see, you would have no sin, but since you said you can see, your sin remains.

Just imagine how someone who even went and got baptised and had words said over em is gonna sound when them words are played back at em, huh? And they have this look on their face like they don't understand? What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind (Luby's)?

Here's an odd thing from biology. We see upside down. Literally. But there is something in the brain that flips the image. It does it so fast that we aren't aware of information going to our eye upside down, but it is entering upside down. It has something to do with the eye being curved.

The blind spot right in front of each eye too though, huh? Although i like the flip thing too, good analogy of how we need to change our minds to naive, imo. Guess the blind spot stays no matter what!

 

[bbyrd009]

The church referred to as the body can not be found in scripture before Paul.

Ha well so you say, Doug, but that don't make it Gospel k

Within these verses above there are

What John and Jesus spoke of in regard to the baptism of the Holy Ghost was

Fire is

John was

The wrath John spoke of is

The baptism of fire is

Luke 3:17 is

Jesus has

no offense Doug but i'm seein a disturbing pattern here bro k. Dunno if you notice it or not
yet

The difference was that only those who believed the gospel of the grace of God that Paul preached in this dispensation formed the body of Christ. Those who believed Peter and the apostles were in Christ and were members of the church of God.

you just sound awful sure, Doug. Know what "Hegelian" means yet bac?