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Featured LUKE 3:16 BAPTISM OF FIRE

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Doug, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

    Within these verses above there are three baptisms; only one is with water. John baptized the nation of Israel to cleanse them to be priests in the coming kingdom (Exodus 29:4 Revelation 5:10). John also baptized to identify Jesus as their Messiah (John 1:31).

    Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    What John and Jesus spoke of in regard to the baptism of the Holy Ghost was fulfilled at Pentecost.

    Ezekiel 22:21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof.

    Fire is associated with the wrath of God.

    Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

    John was baptizing when he saw the Pharisees and Sadducees and warned them to flee the coming wrath. The wrath John spoke of is the day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:12 Revelation 6:17).

    The baptism of fire is the pouring out of the wrath of God. John was exhorting the nation of Israel to turn and recognize Jesus as their Messiah and be cleansed for his kingdom to escape the coming wrath. Luke 3:17 is speaking of the believing remnant of Israel being separated from the unbelieving nation of Israel.

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


    Jesus has saved us as well from the coming wrath.
     
  2. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Addressint the OP. not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. fire is a purifier, a refiner, and yes it can destroy. this is what happen to the Pharisees and Sadducees you mention. for the Fire can, as also as stated , can be the Word of God. supportive scripture, Jeremiah 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them." this is what the two witness, John the baptist and the Lord Jesus christ did in their testimony aganist them. Revelation 11:5 "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed". just something to consider.

    PICJAG.
     
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  3. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I came to the same conclusion (including not saying he's right or wrong) with a couple of other verses:

    1 Peter 1:7 KJV
    That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

    Revelation 3:18 KJV
    I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
     
  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I hate to be the contrarian here, Doug, but your interpretation kinda flies in the face of what Luke 3:16-17 is actually saying, if you read each section of the passage in its context. Look at who John is speaking to in verse 16, and then who He is speaking about in v.17:

    John answered, saying unto them all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and He will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into His garner; but the chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable."

    You have him saying that Jesus was going to baptize those who would believe in Him in the Holy Spirit, and then turn around and burn them in the unquenchable fire of His wrath. That doesn't make any sense. They are the wheat in the next verse, and will be gathered into His barns. It is the chaff, i.e. the unjust who will be burnt with unquenchable fire, not the saints.

    Again, I hate to be the spoil-sport, but it just doesn't fly in the context of v.16.

    Blessings in Christ, and keep searching. Thinking for oneself, even if you miss it now and then, is still a good thing in my book.
     
  5. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    Hello

    Also consider these verses

    Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
     
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  6. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all.
    Amen, agreed. also consider this, to your Zechariah 13:9 you posted. 1 Corinthians 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ".
    1 Corinthians 3:12 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    1 Corinthians 3:13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    1 Corinthians 3:14 "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire".

    for out of the fire, or the Word of God come salvation, supportive scripture, Zechariah 3:2 "And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?".

    for the Lord himself shall be a wall of fire for protection. Zechariah 2:4 "And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
    Zechariah 2:5 "For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her".

    PICJAG.
     
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  7. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well for them maybe, but not for you right
    not solely, wadr. Fire is also associated with "tongue" and "Spirit," at least?
    well, not in the two vv below that? At least
    Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come, Doug? Nehushtan will not save you, ok bro?

    Who is "us" there, may ibe ask? ty
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  8. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    agreed, yes, watch the flip side of the fire, but the type of fire, for God has already set it, Isaiah 48:10 "Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction".

    James 1:3 "Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
    James 1:4 "But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing".

    yes, the fire can be metaphorically used for something else.

    PS in Isaiah 48:10. people who say that thay will be rapture out before the tribulation, they might want to consider Isaiah here. for the furnace of affliction is ... "tribulation".

    PICJAG.
     
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  9. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha so fire has quickly retreated from do you want us to call fire down upon them i guess huh
     
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  10. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    No, there is real physical fire ... like with brimstone, and there is fire used metaphorically in other ways. one must understand the context of the scriptures, as how the term is used.

    PICJAG.
     
  11. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    Hello

    You are misunderstanding the baptism of the Holy Ghost as a result of mixing how the body of Christ is baptized by the Spirit with the prophetic pouring out of the Spirit on Israel.

    The baptism of the Holy Ghost John preached was to be fulfilled at Pentecost. Pentecost was not the beginning of the church, the body of Christ. Pentecost was the prophetic fulfillment Of Joel 2 according to Peter in Acts 2:16. Joel 2:28 speaks of the pouring out of the Spirit. This pouring out of the Spirit would have enabled Israel to go through the tribulation and enter the kingdom.

    You are right in saying the believing remnant of Israel is the gathered wheat and the burned chaff is unbelieving Israel.
     
  12. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    Hello
    Us is the church, the body of Christ
     
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    Any Samaritans or Romans or Muslims in There, iyo?
    . Ty
     
  14. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    as to the Baptism of the Spirit, not saying any are right or wrong, but consider this. the Baptism "OF" the Holy Spirit places one in the body of christ. and the Baptism "WITH" the Holy Spirit enable or empower one to accomplish a mission.

    as John the baptist said, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire".

    PICJAG.
     
  15. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    If Pentecost was not how the body of Christ was baptized by the Spirit, then where and when was the body of Christ baptized by the Spirit in your theology?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  16. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    Hello
    The body of Christ is not spoken of biblically until the epistles of Paul.

    Pentecost was for Israel not the body; it was fulfillment of prophecy.

    The baptism by the Spirit is spoken of only in Paul's epistles. I don't know of a specific passage that says this is where it began other than saying it began somewhere in the dispensation of grace.

    Please show me how Pentecost was the start of the body of Christ.
     
  17. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    The body of Christ began before Pentecost, when the Lord broke bread, and then said to His disciples, "Take and eat. This is my body broken for you." Eating of the body of Christ in "communion" represented that they were all part of the body of Christ together, and responsible to one another as members of one body, just as Paul discussed in 1 Corinthians 11. Paul alluded in Chapter 11 to the original practice handed down by Christ, and then in Chapter 12 went on to describe in great detail the church as Christ's body, being many members yet one body of believers. He merely amplified on the teaching Christ Himself instituted.
     
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  18. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    Hello
    The church referred to as the body can not be found in scripture before Paul. The church was referred to as the church of God which Paul persecuted (1 Corinthians 15:9). The Gentiles as the body of Christ was a mystery revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:6).
     
  19. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    You appear to have taken some lessons from Dave L on how to completely ignore someone else's argument, LoL.

    No problem, Doug. To each his own.
     
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  20. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Actually the baptism of fire is a purging of our souls from the iniquities and impurities that defile us so that we might become holy vessels of honour for the Lord. Either now or at judgment. (actually both if we go to God for this)

    Our God is a consuming fire. (This is not a bad thing) God tests us, tries us, purifies us with fire. Whatever is of eternal value passes through the fire...purged.

    Our God abides in the light and all who come to Him must be purged from impurities. Like the coal of fire that touched the lips of Isaiah so that he might speak pure words. And our own judgment whereby we shall all be salted with fire. The fire will reveal our works..of what kind they are.

    Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

    1 Cor. 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
     
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