The Church The Papacy Says You Should Join

[Nancy]

Wow! I wish I could meet Jesus in the air, confirming the vast doctrine of the rapture, including; all the Ryrie Bibles and paraphernalia; Left Behind books and movies; all based on the teeniest, tiniest fraction of scripture. Maybe Jesus and I could fly off together to celebrate me making the cut, over milkshake...it feels good to be right!

Ron, do you think I believe in this pre trib rapture??

 

[brakelite]

Purgatory is about temporal consequences not eternal ones...

Purgatory, as in the scripture quoted earlier, is us being made perfect by the consuming fire of our Lord's love, burning away the dross, and all that we have built that's not of HIM!

Peace!

If that isn't taking place in your life now, it never will. Now is the time for the perfecting of the Saints.

 

[Phoneman777]

Sorry, I am interested in having a free conversation, not get led down a path of your making - you are not in charge here. If I wanted to be led around by the nose I would call a Mormon missionary and prepare to be leader of my own planet.

Furthermore, I am not on trial

As far dodging questions - I can dodge any question I want to, anytime I want to and for any reason, boss.

I am also on my own schedule. I am currently researching Extravagantes

I am beginning to get a clearer picture of why you do not like Catholic responses - they do not follow the path you’ve laid out and therefore, they must be presenting lies and dodges and muddying the water - in other words you simply do not like them

Hmm....who was that guy who thinks he is God, again?

Asp, I'm sorry but the burden of proof is upon papists to defend their position that -- allegedly -- a bunch of "papist heretics" have been running around writing things like "thou (pope) art another God on Earth" and "Our Lord God the Pope" for centuries against the wishes of papal authority.

It is not unreasonable to challenge such a position by asking you papists to provide:

1) historic account of "papal heretics" such as these put to death for their heresy
2) banning and burning of all works which contain similar examples of "heresy" as described above
3) papal bulls officially denouncing these "papal heretics" and their works

It is also well within the bounds of reason to conclude that, if no such provision can be made, the papacy has taken no such action because the papacy condones these blasphemous statements.

 

[aspen]

Ron, do you think I believe in this pre trib rapture??

I can’t remember if you do or not. Sorry I was using your post as an example of the Protestant version of Purgatory - I wasn’t actually responding

 

[Philip James]

If that isn't taking place in your life now, it never will. Now is the time for the perfecting of the Saints.

Some reach that perfection in this life some 'the person will be saved, but only as through fire.'

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

Asp, I'm sorry but the burden of proof is upon papists to defend their position that -- allegedly -- a bunch of "papist heretics" have been running around writing things like "thou (pope) art another God on Earth" and "Our Lord God the Pope" for centuries against the wishes of papal authority.

.

You mean things like those investigated by this guy here:The Truth About Papal Claims to be God ?

Peace!

 

[farouk]

Whom ever will be chief among you will be your servant. Just as the son of man came to serve.
It’s not verbatim but that’s the Spirit of it

He was indeed obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross (Philippians 2).

 

[farouk]

If that isn't taking place in your life now, it never will. Now is the time for the perfecting of the Saints.

In Luke, the Lord Jesus said we should take up our crosses daily (Luke 9.23).

 

[BreadOfLife]

More religion-speak nonsense.

But, no, those verses are not "warnings to born-again Christians." For God has no need to warn Himself in those born [again] of His own spirit of anything.

You error for lack of understanding. You are confusing those who "have seen a great light" only (such as yourself), with those who have actually entered into that great Light.

WRONG again, my Scripturally-bankrupt friend.

At least TWO of those passages (Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22) speak to born again believers with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and the danger of them falling back into darkness and losing their security. Epignosis is defined as a FULL and experiential knowledge - not just an intellectual assent.

Here is a list of PROTESTANT scholarship on the word "Epignosis":

Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

 

[BreadOfLife]

Dead Bread, the facts point to the one or the other of two conclusions:

1) Your church has for centuries been overrun by catholic "heretics" in positions of authority whose job it is to speak for the papacy, but with uncontrollable tendencies to write "heretical" claims about the pope, catholic doctrine, or rituals, as if some unseen force compelled their writing hands to say things contrary to what is "official" papal dogma...which begs the question: Why has the papacy allowed such heretical, rebellious, blasphemous, inexcusable crimes to be committed against the catholic church by these criminal authoritarians - however well intentioned their efforts may have been - and not exercised such severe punishment against these "heretics" as history proves her well capable, in order to drive out these unholy practices far from the catholic church once and for all?

---or---

2) the papacy is every bit as guilty of sanctioning such blasphemy and these men are no "heretics" at all.

Where are the public denunciations?
Where are the piles of burned books?
Where are the calls of the papacy for these "heretics" to cease and desist?

They don't exist and they never will, and the reason why is when the pope starts working his hocus pocus to sweep the multitudes into the papal fold, the world will be convinced it is Jesus Christ Himself incarnate that sits in on St. Peter's throne, but those who know that the saints go up to "meet the Lord in the air" will not be fooled.

Uh huh - and every time you produce one of your "examples" - it is ALWAYS something taken out of context or a second or third party source - but never a PRIMARY source.

Gee - I WONDER why that is, Phoney??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Define "a Christian".
Define "a stumble",
Define "sin"....
Since your words do not parallel the Scripture reference you mention.
? A Christian....A Stumble...Sin...where more specifically in these scripture and how applicable to losing salvation?
You stated, being SAVED "ONCE", is a lie.
You stated, a person could receive the gift of Salvation and throw it back in the Lords Face.
You now state, you are NOT Saved Again.

So really what is your position....?

HOW MANY TIMES are YOU SAVED?
And AFTER you ARE SAVED, YOU CONTINUE TO SIN, and TO MAINTAIN and KEEP your SALVATION...you MUST CONTINUALLY REPENT?

You can answer for yourself...
But so far...it sounds like you are preaching...
Gods Power within a MAN is NOT SUFFICIENT to KEEP the man FROM continuing to SIN.

So again...to YOU...
What is a Christian?
What is a Stumble?
What is a Sin?

Again...
What is a Christian?
What is a Stumble?
What is Sin?

LOL...now you introduce yet ANOTHER term; FLAW, and again give a REFERENCE to a Scripture that does not mention your term.

So...
What is a FLAW?
And to WHOM do you ADMIT "your flaws"?
And what is an EXAMPLE of "your flaws"?

See if you can ACTUALLY answer the questions I asked instead of listing references to Scripture that do not say what you say.

Glory to God,
Taken

Ummmmm, I never stated that being saved once is a lie.
I have said repeatedly what the BIBLE days - that salvation is a process and not a one-time, slam-dunk event.

The Bible is CLEAR about the fact that we go through:
INITIAL salvation (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
ONGOING salvation (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
FINAL salvation (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15)

People like YOU simply refuse to believe this because it's a lot easier to believe in the fallacy of OSAS. You lack the faith to persevere.
It's probably because you have a problem with scrupulosity like Luther did . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

AND..you forgot to quote me claiming "worship" WAS a primary definition of the word Pray....
Oh right...Because I didn't say that...LOL
(funny how YOU SEE what does not exist)
There are no DEAD PEOPLE in heaven...LOL

Eh...They have been made PERFECTED...the fruition of PERFECTION hasn't occurred YET...
UH...duh...their Dead BODY is still on earth, rotting....and is not YET RAISED IN GLORY!

LOL, you sitting in your little Booth like a circus fortune teller barking out one of your False fantasies.....fails you...
My soul IS restored and saved....the same as any saint IN Heaven...By the SAME Lord God.
My spirit IS quickened....the same as any saint IN Heaven....By the SAME SEED of God.
And THEIR Dead rotting BODY will be RAISED up IN Glory....the same as mine...BY the SAME Spirit of God.

But YOU...IDK...all that Sinning you say you do...but no worries...you have that "fortune telling" thingy that seems to keep you contently occupied.

Glory to God,
Taken

There you go again spewing out your usual manure . . .

First of all, the Bible says that those in Heaven are PERFECT. Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven.
You ARE right about one thing, though: You agree that there are no dead people in Heaven. Therefore, we Catholics don't ask DEAD people to pray for us.

Finally - you anti-Catholics are fond of using Rom. 3:10 to say that Mary wasn't sinless because it says that there is NONE righteous.
However, when saying that we should pray for one another, James says that they prayer of the RIGHTEOUS person is very powerful (James 5:16). Those in Heaven are made RIGHTEOUS in Christ - so we ask them to pray for us.

It's all 100% BIBLICAL, my ignorant friend . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL...it is a HEART matter with a protestant...unlike your teaching of making spiritual decisions with your MIND, that you can later change....

AND ofcourse...it is about Being SELECTIVE, in what one Chooses TO ACCEPT that is good...
and REJECT What is NOT good...

And what's your point...you indulge in EVERYTHING?

Glory to God,
Taken

I follow ALL of Christ's teachings.
I don't pick and choose at the "Buffet of Christianity" like YOU do . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL...
Huh...?
There is no place in Gods kingdom for the Once and Always Saved ?
According to your Catholic doctrine... HOW MANY Times Is a man required to Become Saved Before his place IS in Gods kingdom?

Glory to God,
Taken

Not according to HIS Sacred Word . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person.

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If that isn't taking place in your life now, it never will. Now is the time for the perfecting of the Saints.

Rev. 21:27 states emphatically that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven.

Do YOU know any perfect people?
I didn't think so.

That's what the Final Purification of the Elect (Purgatory) is all about.

 

[brakelite]

Some reach that perfection in this life some 'the person will be saved, but only as through fire.'

Peace!

Philip...in that context, fire is figurative. God is a consuming fire; it is His presence in our lives that burns away sin and all things that hinder spiritual life. The rubbish that hinders growth in the forest of Christianity is being burned away now. Scripture likens us to trees...forests thrive after fire removes the rubbish. Scripture also likens us to gold...same application; the impurities removed through heat...furnace of affliction. The trials and tribulations of this life are what cleanses us from the evil habits and wrong attitudes...if we let it. If not, the branches themselves are gathered and burnt along with the evil fruit they have produced. Now is the time of salvation. Don't leave it to later, later is too late.

 

[brakelite]

In Luke, the Lord Jesus said we should take up our crosses daily (Luke 9.23).

Indeed: death to self.

Do YOU know any perfect people?

What? You saying it isn't possible?

 

[Philip James]

Philip...in that context, fire is figurative. God is a consuming fire; it is His presence in our lives that burns away sin and all things that hinder spiritual life.

Perhaps you should go back and read the verses I quoted... 'the Day shall disclose it etc...'

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Enoch111]

Ron, do you think I believe in this pre trib rapture??

Every Christian should believe in a pre-trib Rapture, since that is the teaching of Christ Himself.

By the same token no sane Christian should believe in the existence of Purgatory, since it is PURE FANTASY. Moreover, it is an attack on the finished work of Christ, since you must pay for your sins in Purgatory (according to the RCC). Even the Orthodox (Quasi-Catholics) don't buy this nonsense.

"...Eastern Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware acknowledges several schools of thought among the Eastern Orthodox on the topic of purification after death...he writes that 'Today most if not all Orthodox theologians reject the idea of Purgatory, at least in [Roman Catholic] form.' "

 

[aspen]

Every Christian should believe in a pre-trib Rapture, since that is the teaching of Christ Himself.

By the same token no sane Christian should believe in the existence of Purgatory, since it is PURE FANTASY. Moreover, it is an attack on the finished work of Christ, since you must pay for your sins in Purgatory (according to the RCC). Even the Orthodox (Quasi-Catholics) don't buy this nonsense.

"...Eastern Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware acknowledges several schools of thought among the Eastern Orthodox on the topic of purification after death...he writes that 'Today most if not all Orthodox theologians reject the idea of Purgatory, at least in [Roman Catholic] form.' "

So to sum up, Purgatory is stupid and the Rapture is awesome!

Thanks Enoch!