As soon as you respond to the scripture in the first 3 posts, I will be glad to respond to any scripture you offer. I have not seen any yet.
Biblical Foreknowledge
- Thread starter Anthony D'Arienzo
- Start date
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The first 3 posts have quite a bit if you want scripture
I try and help people who want help, not who are avoiding it.
If they want to avoid it they can follow the other poster who replaces scripture with carnal thought.
I responded to that early on before the thread was derailed.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I think that there are several reasons for this. We have to realize that there are few things that men cherish above their beliefs. When a belief system (secularly speaking) crumbles a crisis ensues.
In terms of Calvinism I have noticed this, and it has been a historical phenomenon. James White and R.C. Sproul (both Calvinists) have lamented what they call “cage staged” Calvinism. But even going way back – C.H. Spurgeon spoke of hard headed men who discovered a “truth” and could see nothing else. He accused them of “puffery” in doctrine and becoming an obstacle to those who would believe.
Some people have started with Calvinism. If you strip it away there is nothing left. These typically do not understand the Calvinism that they hold. Spurgeon once said that to him Calvinism was the gospel and explained that it was his understanding which was prone to error. But to these people, Calvinism literally is their gospel.
There are people who do not understand theology in general. Systematic theology is a process (often called a “science”). This method systematically incorporates Biblical Theology (the analysis of a particular book or author), but goes beyond any one book or author to utilize the entirety of Scripture. Systematic Theology draws from other branches of theology. It incorporates the extra-biblical (by necessity) to include philosophy and human reasoning. I know this is basic stuff, but I think it only fair to cover it (apologies for the length).
Calvinism is a product of Systematic Theology largely influenced by Theodore Beza’s systemization of Calvin’s Institutes (in particular the placement of Divine Providence) in order to address the five articles of Remonstrance. TUILP was never intended to be a complete soteriological system but instead was to answer a specific issue that arose within Calvinism.
Some people do not realize this. They cannot handle objections to Calvinism because they do not understand it is a result of Systematic Theology. They become offended when asked to defend the philosophy presupposed by pre-Dort Calvinism and by default the Five Points. They are like those who believe only Jesus’ words in red because that is what He said, and he said it in the King’s English.
I think that some actually choose to be blind to other interpretations because they are unable to defend Calvinism outside of preaching to the choir.
And this can apply to any theological system.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
Here is my position:
T – Total Depravity: Men will not seek God apart from the work of God in man.
Jer.17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?”
Titus.3:3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
U – Unconditional Election: God has chosen us not because of any merit He saw in us but by His own determination.
John.17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
John.6:39 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
2Thes.2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
**** These verses could also refer to corporate election.
L – Limited Atonement: God gave Christ that all who believe would be saved.
John.10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
Christ died to save those who would believe – not to save those who will not to believe (they will be judged). Historically Calvinism (since Beza) has been divided on the extent of this one.
Calvin held that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all men, without exception. Other’s view it differently based on how they reason it out.
I – Irresistible Grace: God's redemptive plan will be accomplished.
Rom.8:30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
P – Perseverance of the Saints (Eternal Security/ Eternal Life): Whoever believes will be given eternal life.
Jn.10:30 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.30 "I and My Father are one."
**** "Salvation" can be qualified by the eternal state of being saved as evidenced by being found in Christ "on that day".
T – Total Depravity: Men will not seek God apart from the work of God in man.
Jer.17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?”
Titus.3:3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
U – Unconditional Election: God has chosen us not because of any merit He saw in us but by His own determination.
John.17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
John.6:39 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
2Thes.2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
**** These verses could also refer to corporate election.
L – Limited Atonement: God gave Christ that all who believe would be saved.
John.10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
Christ died to save those who would believe – not to save those who will not to believe (they will be judged). Historically Calvinism (since Beza) has been divided on the extent of this one.
Calvin held that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all men, without exception. Other’s view it differently based on how they reason it out.
I – Irresistible Grace: God's redemptive plan will be accomplished.
Rom.8:30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
P – Perseverance of the Saints (Eternal Security/ Eternal Life): Whoever believes will be given eternal life.
Jn.10:30 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.30 "I and My Father are one."
**** "Salvation" can be qualified by the eternal state of being saved as evidenced by being found in Christ "on that day".
I just checked at Calvinism central.
No Calvinist has crumbled because of JonC and his errant posts.
In fact, everyone is doing just fine and they believe the actual biblical teaching.
They do not listen to anyone explain bible truth away as a philosophy.
It us amazing that the Calvinists have survived just fine before JonC arrived to redefine and attempt to explain it away.
No Calvinist has crumbled because of JonC and his errant posts.
In fact, everyone is doing just fine and they believe the actual biblical teaching.
They do not listen to anyone explain bible truth away as a philosophy.
It us amazing that the Calvinists have survived just fine before JonC arrived to redefine and attempt to explain it away.
I know you meant another song...
but this one is so much happier.
Still doing what?
Talking to me instead of answering my scripture.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
There is (and has been for some time) a movement within Reformed Theology to move towards a more biblical standing. I do not know if this would have occurred except for the excesses and traditionalism of some from within.
My suggestion is not to judge all of Calvinism by the "caged stage". They represent a small (albeit loud) segment within our view.
@John Caldwell
I'm not going to post scripture.
I can, but not now...it's almost 1 am.
My replies will be in blue...
I can post scripture tomorrow when I'm more awake.
CLICK TO EXPAND
But believes at the end of their life.
Perseverance of the saints is problematic as far as I can reason.
God will have the chosen and saved person persevere till the end.
So, in order to be absolutely certain that one is truly chosen...they must wait
till the end to find out. Since GOD chose THE PERSON, it is not up to that person to willfully persever till the end.
Yes. We must be found IN CHRIST on that day.
The life is IN CHRIST.
I DO believe it's possible to abandon God of our own free will since we did not lose it at salvation.
I'm not going to post scripture.
I can, but not now...it's almost 1 am.
My replies will be in blue...
I can post scripture tomorrow when I'm more awake.
CLICK TO EXPAND
I agree that whoever BELIEVES will be given eternal life.
But believes at the end of their life.
Perseverance of the saints is problematic as far as I can reason.
God will have the chosen and saved person persevere till the end.
So, in order to be absolutely certain that one is truly chosen...they must wait
till the end to find out. Since GOD chose THE PERSON, it is not up to that person to willfully persever till the end.
Yes. We must be found IN CHRIST on that day.
The life is IN CHRIST.
I DO believe it's possible to abandon God of our own free will since we did not lose it at salvation.
John Caldwell,
Our friend even seeks to give a false impression Of C.H.Spurgeon and his quote:here is what he actually preached;
"Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible.
"He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy;
tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation."
What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification?
And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer?
Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here.
I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.
I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works;
nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace;
nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah;
nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross;
nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.
here is a bit more;
If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; if one of the covenant ones be lost, so may all be; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance. I will be an infidel at once when I can believe that a saint of God can ever fall finally. If God hath loved me once, then He will love me for ever.
God has a master-mind; He arranged everything in His gigantic intellect long before He did it; and once having settled it, He never alters it, "This shall be done," saith He, and the iron hand of destiny marks it down, and it is brought to pass. "This is My purpose," and it stands, nor can earth or hell alter it. "This is My decree," saith He, "promulgate it, ye holy angels; rend it down from the gate of Heaven, ye devils, if ye can; but ye cannot alter the decree, it shall stand for ever." God altereth not His plans; why should He? He is Almighty, and therefore can perform His pleasure. Why should He? He is the All-wise, and therefore cannot have planned wrongly. Why should He? He is the everlasting God, and therefore cannot die before His plan is accomplished. Why should He change? Ye worthless atoms of earth, ephemera of a day, ye creeping insects upon this bay-leaf of existence, ye may change your plans, but He shall never, never change His. Has He told me that His plan is to save me? If so, I am for ever safe.
here is the whole sermon;
A Defense of Calvinism
Our friend even seeks to give a false impression Of C.H.Spurgeon and his quote:here is what he actually preached;
"Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible.
"He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy;
tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation."
What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification?
And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer?
Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here.
I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.
I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works;
nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace;
nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah;
nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross;
nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.
here is a bit more;
If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; if one of the covenant ones be lost, so may all be; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance. I will be an infidel at once when I can believe that a saint of God can ever fall finally. If God hath loved me once, then He will love me for ever.
God has a master-mind; He arranged everything in His gigantic intellect long before He did it; and once having settled it, He never alters it, "This shall be done," saith He, and the iron hand of destiny marks it down, and it is brought to pass. "This is My purpose," and it stands, nor can earth or hell alter it. "This is My decree," saith He, "promulgate it, ye holy angels; rend it down from the gate of Heaven, ye devils, if ye can; but ye cannot alter the decree, it shall stand for ever." God altereth not His plans; why should He? He is Almighty, and therefore can perform His pleasure. Why should He? He is the All-wise, and therefore cannot have planned wrongly. Why should He? He is the everlasting God, and therefore cannot die before His plan is accomplished. Why should He change? Ye worthless atoms of earth, ephemera of a day, ye creeping insects upon this bay-leaf of existence, ye may change your plans, but He shall never, never change His. Has He told me that His plan is to save me? If so, I am for ever safe.
here is the whole sermon;
A Defense of Calvinism
I know James White...but I don't know what caged stage means.
What would you call him?
You know AD, I've been telling you this forever,
but you have a testa dura.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn to use the quote feature and stop using color unless it's for a specific purpose OUTSIDE OF THE USUAL posting style.
I'd love to reply to the above...
but I can't take the time to read it and understand it.
Skimming through I read something about the CAtholic Church.
You shouldn't dislike the CC so much,,,AUGUSTINE, your hero, was catholic.
And the CC does NOT believe that we are saved by faith and works.
WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH...
then comes sanctification and works/good deeds.
Ephesians 2:10
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I would like to fellowship over a discussion of this topic. No need to provide Scripture – I know where you are coming from.
I agree with you that whoever believes will be given eternal life. I agree as well that those who are saved are revealed as such in the end. I think we can know now based only on our life at a given point in time (if I confess Christ then I am saved; a year later, if I do not then I am not saved and was not last year). This is why we are to be sure of our faith, that we are among the elect. It is a daily process, IMHO. The assurance is only in our walk, and when we are walking in darkness we have no assurance.
The reason that I do not believe that a Christian can abandon Christ is that in so doing the person would have proven himself no Christian at all (not to be saved in the end).
Again, Scripture teaches us to judge fruit and examine ourselves that we are in truth among the elect. This is a daily command and it is a daily walk.
John Caldwell,
Complete nonsense. The thing is, you do not know what you are talking about.
You make these sweeping general statements that you invent, and we are expected to just agree with. Anyone who does not agree , when you can, you delete their posts and make an excuse for doing so...
Not everyone agrees with your strange ideas. Some do! 30 people believed Marshall Appewhite and drank the poison hoping to get to that Comet.
.
Complete nonsense. The thing is, you do not know what you are talking about.
You make these sweeping general statements that you invent, and we are expected to just agree with. Anyone who does not agree , when you can, you delete their posts and make an excuse for doing so...
Not everyone agrees with your strange ideas. Some do! 30 people believed Marshall Appewhite and drank the poison hoping to get to that Comet.
Your opinion...you are welcome to it.
Please answer so I find an alert tomorrow morning...I really have to go to sleep.
In the meantime, here are some reasons why I believe a Christian can become lost.
Basically, it seems to me to be what Jesus said.
Luke 8:13
Mathew 7:23
The verse about not looking back once we decide to be a disciple.
John 15:5-6
There's more.
The parable of the Prodigal Son....
The son is AGAIN alive after having been dead.
I do believe other writers also taught this.
So I agree that we could know TODAY that we are saved...
and I also believe that we could know that TOMORROW we can be saved because, I, right now, know that I'll believe till the end and am 99% certain due to my life experiences. I can't believe that someone that BELIEVES themselves to be Christian is not...which is what you're saying. This is like judging who is saved and who isn't --- it's not up to us.
Tomorrow.
GodsGrace,
Well then no real interaction can take place then. No one says you have to. However, if you do not want to take time, why should I go off topic and do what you want.?
When people do not want to"take the time"99 out of a hundred is, they cannot answer and are looking to divert to another idea ,so as to not address the topic and fail.
Looks like you do not understand what your own church believes then. They have a works gospel.
I like colors...
Well then no real interaction can take place then. No one says you have to. However, if you do not want to take time, why should I go off topic and do what you want.?
When people do not want to"take the time"99 out of a hundred is, they cannot answer and are looking to divert to another idea ,so as to not address the topic and fail.
Looks like you do not understand what your own church believes then. They have a works gospel.
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