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All the passages which speak of foreknowledge, election, and predestination are related to the future perfection and glorification of the saints. This should have been honestly exegeted by all, but was perverted by Reformed Theolgoy.As I was getting at - given the text of Scripture what are the reasons for either interpretation of foreknowledge? Is it our theological lens (eisegesis) or the text itself?
I think Augustine brought the question up.It is interesting that Calvinism was foreign to Ignatius and Polycarp as far as we can tell). But to be fair, the questions Calvinism addresses were not even being asked during Calvin's lifetime.
I agree with this. Where we disagree is that I do believe that Calvinism (in what it affirms, not necessarily in what specific Calvinists deny) represents salvation from the divine perspective (something that we cannot know completely).I think Augustine brought the question up.
The church couldn't accept his ideas.
The ECFs learned from the Apostles...
why would they make such an important concept of Christianity the fact that we had to go into all the world and teach what Jesus taught and baptize -- Matthew 28:19...
Why would the writers of the N.T. and the ECFs make such an important concept that in Christianity we had to behave a certain way?
If God predestined all...wouldn't HIS will be done apart from anything WE did (which we were told to do?)
The above just makes calvinism unfeasible to me.
I DO believe that God CHOSE some for special purposes.
Mary would be one.
Judas would be one.
Moses would be one.
Mary said her famous YES....
But did she really have a choice?
It's not so easy to understand God...
but to say He picks and chooses who will be saved just makes no sense.
Roman's 9:16-22 might help your search,I think Augustine brought the question up.
The church couldn't accept his ideas.
The ECFs learned from the Apostles...
why would they make such an important concept of Christianity the fact that we had to go into all the world and teach what Jesus taught and baptize -- Matthew 28:19...
Why would the writers of the N.T. and the ECFs make such an important concept that in Christianity we had to behave a certain way?
If God predestined all...wouldn't HIS will be done apart from anything WE did (which we were told to do?)
The above just makes calvinism unfeasible to me.
I DO believe that God CHOSE some for special purposes.
Mary would be one.
Judas would be one.
Moses would be one.
Mary said her famous YES....
But did she really have a choice?
It's not so easy to understand God...
but to say He picks and chooses who will be saved just makes no sense.
This is an important consideration with the OP.Everyone has a choice.
I would like you to know that I've gone beyong the TULIP points and have read some of the institutes.I agree with this. Where we disagree is that I do believe that Calvinism (in what it affirms, not necessarily in what specific Calvinists deny) represents salvation from the divine perspective (something that we cannot know completely).
The questions we may ask (did Judas have a choice when it had been determined; did the pharaoh when he would not let Israel go; or even - did Jesus have a choice) are philosophical. I think that much is because of the way that we think (Western ideologies and philosophies). This should not make us change Scripture to suit our understanding but I see this over and over again. Some Calvinists, for example, deny that Christ is the Propitiation of the sins for the world and change "world" to "elect". Yet this is unnecessary (even for Calvinism - John Calvin viewed "world" to mean "everyone without exception").
The problem with the Reformed view of "foreknowledge" is that the definition it is relational is often offered based not on Scripture but on a theological position (this can be true of the idea it is "pre-knowledge" as well).
But this does not mean that Calvinism itself teaches these things. Calvinism (the five points) is a very narrow and philosophical answer to a specific issue that arose within Calvinism concerning divine providence as it relates to salvation.
Read Luke 1:31 and then tell me if that sounds like a multiple choice to you.Everyone has a choice.
Maybe not everyone believes the O.P. is biblical truth?The OP. Deals with biblical truth and reality.
The philosophical speculation that is going on now has nothing to do with the biblical facts.
But , it is easier to not answer to truth, just have fun and make up your own truth...that is easier.
Sure. But it's about Israel.Roman's 9:16-22 might help your search,
You did not offer any exegesis, just church history. You never engaged the OP at all, you did not want to.I would like you to know that I've gone beyong the TULIP points and have read some of the institutes.
I don't claim any expertise in the area which is why it would be nice to speak about it but it seems I can't do this without the other person going haywire on me.
To be frank,,,I don't know why this has to be. It's almost like the other member is upset to face my exegesis or almost like he's trying to convince himself as much as me...it's just not clear to me why it can't be discussed calmly,,,,as it is with you.
If you want to believe that God chooses who will be saved based on your understanding of scripture,,,then this is your belief and I don't agree but there's no need to become upset (not you).
I've encountered this over and over again.
It's either Piper or MacCarthur that stress how their church is to be loving toward those that are not the chosen. Maybe there's too much pride going on?
Sorry, but it is not.Sure. But it's about Israel.
Not each one of us individually.
I am more than sure of that GG.Maybe not everyone believes the O.P. is biblical truth?
I know what the confessional churches teach...if by confessional churches you mean the Westminster Confessions and those churches that agree with it.You did not offer any exegesis, just church history. You never engaged the OP at all, you did not want to.
Do not worry. You now have the ascended master JonC.
He will redefine everything for you and maybe agree with everything you say.
What you will not get from him is what the confessional churches teach. So enjoy
Listen to me...I am more than sure of that GG.
That is between them and God.
I just try and present truth and be faithful. Like in the parable of the sower,
Some seed gets stolen away.
That will happen here quite a bit now,lol but it will be nice and pleasant
I know what the confessional churches teach...if by confessional churches you mean the Westminster Confessions and those churches that agree with it.
What can I say AD? The more I learn about the theology of Calvinism,,,the more I dislike it.
It's NOT the God I know and love.