Alive or dead

[ScottA]

You think I don't believe 100%?
I agree with Jesus. In Him is our hope. And what is that hope? What He said. The resurrection.

No, I think you do...that is why I was reluctant to call you on errors. But then again, you did put out the challenge.

But I would recommend that you not set yourself up for such a challenge to be met. You might have just opened it all up for discussion and avoided putting yourself in that position.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I think it is easier than many realise. Although I would be the first to admit that the spirit component is somewhat of a mystery and there is much conjecture and assumption attached to it. Body... Ready. The physical stuff we use to get around and relate to life. Flesh, sinew, muscle, bone, various organs with eyes and ears and a tongue and mind to think with all encased in skin with hair on.
The soul...a little more complicated so we need to go to the word for that but at creation man became a living organism when the dust/body were joined with that breath of life which animated the lump of dirt.
The spirit we don't know much about. What we do know is that as far as living entities are concerned, the only spirit that has inherent immortality is God. Our eternal existence or whatever we want to call it comes as a gift. That gift is intimately associated with the resurrection of the body... It is only guessing and necessity to support errant surmisings that suggests that our spirit can see, hear, taste touch and think without those mechanisms that make those things possible.

What “spirit” are you referring to? When man was created and became a living soul only two elements were required, the breath of life and the organism, the combination of the two produced a living sentient being, a living soul. There is not one word spoken about the Lord imparting any spirit into the man.

The only ones possessing a “spirit” in them are those during the Gospel age who have been begotten of God’s spirit, and even then this is not their spirit it is God’s spirit, his holy spirit or disposition dwelling in them.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Anyone ever wonder why God created us in His image in chapter 1....then in Chapter 2 He formed man (Adam) from the dust of the earth?
What I am getting at is are these 2 separate accounts of creation?
And why would God use the dust of the earth to make our bodies when He could have just spoken it to existence?

 

[marks]

Anyone ever wonder why God created us in His image in chapter 1....then in Chapter 2 He formed man (Adam) from the dust of the earth?
What I am getting at is are these 2 separate accounts of creation?
And why would God use the dust of the earth to make our bodies when He could have just spoken it to existence?

I don't know why God did it this way . . . I picture Jesus, kneeling on the ground, patting dirt together, forming the shape of the man, then breathing into him life. "Adam!" as He stands him to his feet.

I've always read this as chapter 1 being the account of creation, and chapter 2 going back to give more detail on the creation of man.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Anyone ever wonder why God created us in His image in chapter 1....then in Chapter 2 He formed man (Adam) from the dust of the earth?
What I am getting at is are these 2 separate accounts of creation?
And why would God use the dust of the earth to make our bodies when He could have just spoken it to existence?

We may remember also that God already had the Last Adam in mind. One Who would be truly God and truly human, sin apart, Who would suffer in the flesh and rise from the dead and ascend to the right hand of the Father bodily.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I don't know why God did it this way . . . I picture Jesus, kneeling on the ground, patting dirt together, forming the shape of the man, then breathing into him life. "Adam!" as He stands him to his feet.

I've always read this as chapter 1 being the account of creation, and chapter 2 going back to give more detail on the creation of man.

Much love!

Surprisingly enough I did a web search and read a few theories on this....the one I liked the best is He formed man (and animals) out of the earth to give him a kinship so to speak to what he is given dominion over....
Secondly the earth contained every mineral and certain elements found in the human body that is necessary for proteins to bind and form a physical structure. Proteins are the building blocks of life.

 

[charity]

In what way, would you say, would Paul be "with Christ; which is far better"?

According to my earnest expectation and my hope,
that in nothing I shall be ashamed,
but that with all boldness, as always,
so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body,
whether it be by life, or by death.
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour:
yet what I shall choose I wot not.
For I am in a strait betwixt two,
having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
(Philippians 1:20-26)
​

Hello Marks,

Paul knew that Christ would be magnified in his body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to Paul to live was Christ, and to die was gain also - for Christ. Living or dying was not the issue, for there was a further option which far outweighed both as far as Paul was concerned: He desired to depart and be with Christ. However that required resurrection out from among the dead: for only then would mortality put on immortality, corruption put on in-corruption: or the natural put on what is spiritual (1 Corinthians 15). Yes, only then would resurrection life be possible. Only in resurrection life could Paul be with Christ.

Paul spoke of death as an unclothed state (2 Corinthians 5:1-6), and he did not want to be found, 'naked': he wanted to be clothed upon by resurrection life. While in the body He was absent from the Lord. For immortality must be swallowed of life, and that required the resurrection from the dead.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[brakelite]

According to my earnest expectation and my hope,
that in nothing I shall be ashamed,
but that with all boldness, as always,
so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body,
whether it be by life, or by death.
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour:
yet what I shall choose I wot not.
For I am in a strait betwixt two,
having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
(Philippians 1:20-26)
​

Hello Marks,

Paul knew that Christ would be magnified in his body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to Paul to live was Christ, and to die was gain also - for Christ. Living or dying was not the issue, for there was a further option which far outweighed both as far as Paul was concerned: He desired to depart and be with Christ. However that required resurrection out from among the dead: for only then would mortality put on immortality, corruption put on in-corruption: or the natural put on what is spiritual (1 Corinthians 15). Yes, only then would resurrection life be possible. Only in resurrection life could Paul be with Christ.

Paul spoke of death as an unclothed state (2 Corinthians 5:1-6), and he did not want to be found, 'naked': he wanted to be clothed upon by resurrection life. While in the body He was absent from the Lord. For immortality must be swallowed of life, and that required the resurrection from the dead.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Good reply. I would ask as an addendum to the above... If Paul's clothed state was as he described, in possession of a house, and this house incorporated either mortal or immortal, this obviously being the mortal state prior to death, them the immortal state post resurrection... If Paul was describing as some claim an immediate journey by spirit initial the items of God at death, which would be the unclothed state, the time of nakedness not having a house, why was Paul so averse to this? Even naked one would think if he was in God's presence that would be desirable? But no. We don't want that he said ... We want to be clothed, preferably in immortality, but until then, he said, I would be happy to remain and glorify Him.
That time of death when naked was not an option to be preferred.

 

[brakelite]

@ScottA you quoted
John 11:25
"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live."
That's a great promise, which would be impossible to implement had Christ not risen... It is His resurrection that gives us hope of our own. The promise, he shall live, though he were dead, must be seen on connection to Paul's writings on resurrection and his own testimony as being taught by the very one who rose... Which is why Paul wrote of the resurrection so often, and never of being immediately with the Lord after death.

 

[brakelite]

@marks Another point. Most believe we take upon ourselves the immortal house, the one eternal in the heavens immediately upon death. I mean, that's why they quote this section of scripture right? So what Hagen's at the resurrection, when we are clothed with the resurrected immortal house? We rent out the one eternal in the heavens? Do you realise that is now 3 houses? Yet Paul only spoke of two.

 

[brakelite]

How do you reconcile the mount of transfiguration?

Okay, I differ from harvests understanding of that event. Just because Jesus described the event as a vision, doesnt mean it wasn't real. I believe Moses was resurrected, as described when Michael claimed his body from the Satan. We are not told when this took place. And Elijah was "taken"... Translated bodily, and no doubt clothed with eternal life as those who are still alive at the second coming.

 

[brakelite]

No, I think you do...that is why I was reluctant to call you on errors. But then again, you did put out the challenge.

But I would recommend that you not set yourself up for such a challenge to be met. You might have just opened it all up for discussion and avoided putting yourself in that position.

Lol fair enough. I don't however believe that whatever 'interpretation' I offered was anything other than what the scripture declared. Unlike the assumptions that claim our spirits are sentient and eternal.

 

[farouk]

According to my earnest expectation and my hope,
that in nothing I shall be ashamed,
but that with all boldness, as always,
so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body,
whether it be by life, or by death.
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour:
yet what I shall choose I wot not.
For I am in a strait betwixt two,
having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
(Philippians 1:20-26)
​

Hello Marks,

Paul knew that Christ would be magnified in his body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to Paul to live was Christ, and to die was gain also - for Christ. Living or dying was not the issue, for there was a further option which far outweighed both as far as Paul was concerned: He desired to depart and be with Christ. However that required resurrection out from among the dead: for only then would mortality put on immortality, corruption put on in-corruption: or the natural put on what is spiritual (1 Corinthians 15). Yes, only then would resurrection life be possible. Only in resurrection life could Paul be with Christ.

Paul spoke of death as an unclothed state (2 Corinthians 5:1-6), and he did not want to be found, 'naked': he wanted to be clothed upon by resurrection life. While in the body He was absent from the Lord. For immortality must be swallowed of life, and that required the resurrection from the dead.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Philippians is indeed so rich and so searching. We did a series on Philippians at our local church years ago.

 

[Enoch111]

Unlike the assumptions that claim our spirits are sentient and eternal.

Since that is what is actually revealed in the Bible, it is only your misinterpretation (based upon what your denomination teaches) that souls and spirits are not "sentient and eternal".

 

[Enoch111]

Proteins are the building blocks of life.

And they consist of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur. What is amazing is the structure of protein.

 

[charity]

Good reply. I would ask as an addendum to the above... If Paul's clothed state was as he described, in possession of a house, and this house incorporated either mortal or immortal, this obviously being the mortal state prior to death, them the immortal state post resurrection... If Paul was describing as some claim an immediate journey by spirit initial the items of God at death, which would be the unclothed state, the time of nakedness not having a house, why was Paul so averse to this? Even naked one would think if he was in God's presence that would be desirable? But no. We don't want that he said ... We want to be clothed, preferably in immortality, but until then, he said, I would be happy to remain and glorify Him.
That time of death when naked was not an option to be preferred.

'As for me, I will behold Thy face in righteousness:
I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness.'
(Psalms 17:15)

"Thank you," @brakelite

Man does not have an immortal soul. So there can be no 'life' without resurrection. There is no power, apart from resurrection power, to raise man from the dead. The 'breath of life' (or spirit) leaves the body at death, and goes back to God who gave it, and the soul (the whole person) being therefore without it's life source is dead. It awaits the quickening of the spirit at resurrection.

* The unbeliever is 'dead' while he lives, and has no hope of resurrection life, only of judgement.
* The believer however, is reckoned by God to be merely 'asleep in Christ', at death; awaiting the resurrection from the dead - in God's time.
* When Christ, who is our 'life' shall appear, then shall we also 'appear' with Him in glory (Colossians 3:4).

* At the transfiguration (Matthew 17) the disciples saw a vision of Christ (at His coming again) in resurrection glory. Moses and Elijah are seen to be with Him, also 'then' alive from the dead. This is a vision of post resurrection glory. (Matthew 16:28), real, but yet future.

* There is no life apart from resurrection, for any man.

'That I may know Him,
and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of His sufferings,
being made conformable unto His death;
If by any means I might attain
unto the resurrection of the dead.' (exanastasis:- resurrection out from among dead ones)
(Philippians 3:10-11)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[OzSpen]

First, let us begin where God began...creation. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Here described is the nature of man. Succinctly and clearly, with no ambiguity and no interpretation necessary. Man is a living soul. We are a combination of two things. Dust, and breath of life...spirit. That combination forms the soul. When we die, Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. And as a result of that separation of dust and breath, body and spirit, the soul ceases to exist. As Ezekiel says, the soul that sinneth it shall die. The man, the human being, dies. The body becomes corrupted and turns into mud, and the life force that animated the body making it a living soul, returns to God. There is no evidence in scripture, anywhere, hinting or speaking either implicitly or explicitly, that the spirit that returns to God at death has a life of its own carrying the consciousness or personality of the former man. We must remember that as you also agreed , that God alone is immortal, but that He also is Spirit. God alone is an immortal Spirit. So unless you can show me that the spirit He gave to man is immortal in the same manner as He is, that is carrying the personality and memories and life of the former bearer, we must assume that the spirit is merely that which is revealed thus far...the breath of life that in conjunction with dust, forms the living soul.

brakelite,

You here promote the age-old unbiblical doctrine that refuses to support the immortality of the soul. Are you a supporter of conditional immortality?

JWs promote it, as do Christadelphians. Relying on Ecclesiastes to support one's doctrine of what happens at death is challenging because Ecclesiastes was written from the view of 'under the sun' (Eccl 1:3, 9). It's a human perspective on life and death and not a godly view, in my understanding.

Oz

Matt Slick has written an excellent article to refute that theology, Does the soul cease to exist after death?

Oz

 

[charity]

'That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable,
until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in His times He shall shew,

Who is the blessed and only Potentate,
the King of kings,
and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality,​

dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
whom no man hath seen, nor can see:
to whom be honour and power everlasting.
Amen.'
(1 Timothy 6:14-16)

Praise God!

 

[charity]

'For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?'
(1 Corinthians 15:53-55)

* There is no life apart from resurrection.

Praise God!

 

[farouk]

'For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?'
(1 Corinthians 15:53-55)

* There is no life apart from resurrection.

Praise God!

What an encouragement at the funeral of a believer!

(We seem to have been going to a lot of those, lately...)