Alive or dead

[marks]

@marks Another point. Most believe we take upon ourselves the immortal house, the one eternal in the heavens immediately upon death. I mean, that's why they quote this section of scripture right? So what Hagen's at the resurrection, when we are clothed with the resurrected immortal house? We rent out the one eternal in the heavens? Do you realise that is now 3 houses? Yet Paul only spoke of two.

Paul spoke of our terrestrial tent, and our eternal house, not made with hands, that we have now. In the resurrection, the eternal will clothe upon the terrertrial body that is raised back up, from the two making one new man, as it were.

But this is how God describes it, that we are in bodies here, while at the same time we have being in the heavenly realm together with Christ, and we have celestial bodies now that if the terrestrial tent is taken down, we continue on in the celestial body, then no longer tethered to our physical senses, then we will see Him, though we be with Him now.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Paul spoke of our terrestrial tent, and our eternal house, not made with hands, that we have now. In the resurrection, the eternal will clothe upon the terrertrial body that is raised back up, from the two making one new man, as it were.

But this is how God describes it, that we are in bodies here, while at the same time we have being in the heavenly realm together with Christ, and we have celestial bodies now that if the terrestrial tent is taken down, we continue on in the celestial body, then no longer tethered to our physical senses, then we will see Him, though we be with Him now.

Much love!

John 1.14 alludes to tabernacling also; in the Lord Jesus' case, He dwelt among us in sinlessness, perfectly man and perfectly God...

 

[ScottA]

@ScottA you quoted
John 11:25
"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live."
That's a great promise, which would be impossible to implement had Christ not risen... It is His resurrection that gives us hope of our own. The promise, he shall live, though he were dead, must be seen on connection to Paul's writings on resurrection and his own testimony as being taught by the very one who rose... Which is why Paul wrote of the resurrection so often, and never of being immediately with the Lord after death.

Not sure what you are saying. Are you saying this is not true?

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

 

[ScottA]

Lol fair enough. I don't however believe that whatever 'interpretation' I offered was anything other than what the scripture declared. Unlike the assumptions that claim our spirits are sentient and eternal.

Again, I am not sure just what you mean. But I believe there is confusion regarding the spirit and the breath of God. Indeed, God-breathed life is life, but what does He refer to? The end of that question is answered by Jesus who explained that in spite of our being a "living soul" we needed to be born again of the spirit of God, meaning the life breathed into us in the beginning was not eternal life...but rather God-given finite life, the first gift from God. As it is written, "children are a gift from God", and also "first the natural, then the spiritual."

 

[brakelite]

You here promote the age-old unbiblical doctrine that refuses to support the immortality of the soul. Are you a supporter of conditional immortality?

well, the Bible to me is chrystal clear as to who is, and how many beings in this universe are immortal. And that One aint me. And I hope not you. Our partaking of immortality is surely then conditional on a number of factors, seeing it cannot be innate to our nature, therefore it must be a gift. That gift we read is only granted to those who
KJV Romans 2
7 ... by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
That sounds very much like conditional immortality to me. How do you read it differently?

 

[brakelite]

Not sure what you are saying. Are you saying this is not true?

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

Of course it's true, but not until the second coming.

 

[brakelite]

Paul spoke of our terrestrial tent, and our eternal house, not made with hands, that we have now. In the resurrection, the eternal will clothe upon the terrertrial body that is raised back up, from the two making one new man,

We have it only by promise... We will possess it only through faithfulness and as Paul said,
KJV Romans 2
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Our being seated with Christ is also by promise and declaration... Our experience of that comes later
KJV Ephesians 2
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Note the above text you are basing your theory on fits not say we are in our immortal bodies in heaven... It says we are in Christ. We are in heaven because of His representation... Our names engraved on the palms of His hands... We are in heaven because He is our High Priest, and where He is, so are we...

But this is how God describes it, that we are in bodies here, while at the same time we have being in the heavenly realm together with Christ, and we have celestial bodies now that if the terrestrial tent is taken down, we continue on in the celestial body, then no longer tethered to our physical senses, then we will see Him, though we be with Him now.

Sounds so very over complicated and ponderous. I think God's plan to raise everyone up at the same time and meet Him together in the air, is far simpler and more biblically supportable.

 

[Enoch111]

What I am getting at is are these 2 separate accounts of creation?

1. Man was made in God's image so that he could resemble God and also fellowship with God.
2. Genesis chapter 1 is an overview, while chapter 2 focuses on man and his relationship to God.

And why would God use the dust of the earth to make our bodies when He could have just spoken it to existence?

There were several reasons why Adam was created out of the dust of the earth:
(1) all the nutrients to sustain human life would come from soil, air, and water,
(2) God knew in advance that mankind would sin, therefore physical death would be a permanent fixture (thus returning man to dust),
(3) God knew in advance that Christ would come to earth as sinless man and pay the penalty for all our sins, thus destroying the power of death, and
(4) all those who died would eventually be resurrected (from the dust) and either receive immortality or face eternal separation from God.

 

[OzSpen]

well, the Bible to me is chrystal clear as to who is, and how many beings in this universe are immortal. And that One aint me. And I hope not you. Our partaking of immortality is surely then conditional on a number of factors, seeing it cannot be innate to our nature, therefore it must be a gift. That gift we read is only granted to those who
KJV Romans 2
7 ... by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
That sounds very much like conditional immortality to me. How do you read it differently?

brakelite,

The Bible teaches that God alone had no beginning or end (1 Tim 6:16). That means he is the Alpha & Omega.

However, Paul does not speak with a forked-tongue when he states that Christians have immortality (1 Cor. 15:53) and partake of immortality through the Gospel (2 Tim. 1:10).

The Bible teaches that believers have aiwnios (eternal) life and unbelievers go to eternal damnation (Matt 25:46). Both unbelievers and believers will experience eternal conscious bliss or terrible suffering. Unbelievers will not be annihilated. See: Do evil doers experience eternal destruction or annihilation at death?

It is NOT crystal clear. It requires exposition and you have not done that here.

See: What is conditional immortality? | GotQuestions.org

Oz

 

[brakelite]

brakelite,

The Bible teaches that God alone had no beginning or end (1 Tim 6:16). That means he is the Alpha & Omega.

However, Paul does not speak with a forked-tongue when he states that Christians have immortality (1 Cor. 15:53) and partake of immortality through the Gospel (2 Tim. 1:10).

The Bible teaches that believers have aiwnios (eternal) life and unbelievers go to eternal damnation (Matt 25:46). Both unbelievers and believers will experience eternal conscious bliss or terrible suffering. Unbelievers will not be annihilated. See: Do evil doers experience eternal destruction or annihilation at death?

It is NOT crystal clear. It requires exposition and you have not done that here.

See: What is conditional immortality? | GotQuestions.org

Oz

So if immortality comes to light only through the gospel, doesnt that make it conditional? And if it's a gift for the born again believer at the second coming, when do the unbelievers receive that gift?

 

[Enoch111]

So if immortality comes to light only through the gospel, doesnt that make it conditional?

Immortality is conditioned upon obedience to the Gospel. Only believers are promised immortality.

And if it's a gift for the born again believer at the second coming, when do the unbelievers receive that gift?

Why then would unbelievers receive this gift? At the same time there is a *resurrection of damnation*, which means that their bodies are restored only to suffer eternally.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(John 5:29).

 

[marks]

Sounds so very over complicated and ponderous. I think God's plan to raise everyone up at the same time and meet Him together in the air, is far simpler and more biblically supportable.

It's all right here:

2 Corinthians
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

Of course it's true, but not until the second coming.

How then do you reconcile that with: "each in his own order?"

 

[OzSpen]

So if immortality comes to light only through the gospel, doesnt that make it conditional? And if it's a gift for the born again believer at the second coming, when do the unbelievers receive that gift?

No! You confuse God who has no beginning and end with people (saved and lost) who have a beginning (they are born) and have an eternal destiny in heaven or Hades/Gehenna.

You don't seem to understand the false doctrine of conditional immortality.

 

[OzSpen]

Immortality is conditioned upon obedience to the Gospel. Only believers are promised immortality.

Why then would unbelievers receive this gift? At the same time there is a *resurrection of damnation*, which means that their bodies are restored only to suffer eternally.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(John 5:29).

Enoch,

Immortality - if defined as eternal - refers to both Christian believers and the damned: ‘Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life' (Matt 25:46 NIV).

The length of time for the righteous in the place of eternal life is exactly the same length of time as for the unrighteous in their place. They will be there for eternity, eternally.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

So if immortality comes to light only through the gospel, doesnt that make it conditional? And if it's a gift for the born again believer at the second coming, when do the unbelievers receive that gift?

brakelite,

2 Thess 1:8-9 (NIV) states: 'He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might'.

When I drove over my child's toy, it was destroyed but not annihilated. In these 2 verses, we have the biblical teaching of God punishing unbelievers (not obeying the Gospel) with 'everlasting destruction' which means they are 'shut out from the presence of the Lord' and his glory. 'Everlasting destruction' does not mean annihilation as unbelievers still experience a situation of not being exposed to the presence and glory of the Lord.

I can't imagine anything more damnable.

Oz

 

[Enoch111]

Enoch,

Immortality - if defined as eternal - refers to both Christian believers and the damned: ‘Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life' (Matt 25:46 NIV).

Oz

Except that the term *immortal* only applies to God and the children of God when they become immortal. It is connected to righteousness and perfection. So the existence of the damned in physical bodies is not considered immortality but eternal torment -- *eternal punishment*.

 

[OzSpen]

Except that the term *immortal* only applies to God and the children of God when they become immortal. It is connected to righteousness and perfection. So the existence of the damned in physical bodies is not considered immortality but eternal torment -- *eternal punishment*.

Enoch,

It is true that God alone is immortal - deathless in his essence (1 Tim 6:16). He cannot ever die.

However God has imparted immortality to believers. We see this in the OT where it was taught that immortality would come about if people lived righteously. This is clearly taught in Prov 12:28 (NIV): 'In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality'. Other translations provide the meaning of the 'path is immortality' for the righteous: 'In the path of righteousness there is life, in walking its path there is no death' (NRSV).

Charles Bridges in his detailed commentary on Proverbs states of this verse, 'Righteousness is here crowned with "life and immortality." So clearly did the wise man [writer of Proverbs] see beyond this dying world; and catch the sun-beams of glory "brought to light by the Gospel!" (2 Tim 1:10)

Oz

Bridges, C 1846/1974. A Geneva Series Commentary: Proverbs. Edinburgh: The Banner of Truth Trust.

 

[brakelite]

How then do you reconcile that with: "each in his own order?"

As the full verse implies...
KJV 1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[brakelite]

No! You confuse God who has no beginning and end with people (saved and lost) who have a beginning (they are born) and have an eternal destiny in heaven or Hades/Gehenna.

You don't seem to understand the false doctrine of conditional immortality.

No confusion cuz. I see only allusions in scripture, nothing definitive, concerning eternal life being granted as a gift to sinners. My apprehension of the character of God denies the belief in a God who keeps creatures alive throughout all eternity for the express purpose of inflicting pain in some sort of retributive punishment. And I see death to be the opposite to life... An absence of life... As all nature attests.