The Bible puts us at a Crossroads

[marks]

Once again, if you cannot see a difference between growing/maturing in righteousness and holiness, this problem will persist.

I'm just telling you Scripture.

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And once again, your comment gives nothing to clarify a difference as you may wish to discuss it, which I'm more than happy to do, but you only made disparaging comments against me, so what is there to discuss?

I'm once again quoting one of the passages I have in mind, I'm underlining the part I want to highlight, I'm saying, God has recreated the born again believers as new creatures, which He calls righteous and truly holy.

Sanctification is the word that describes this new person that God made being trained by Him to, by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit, use the flesh body for the works of righteousness which God ordained for us, instead of letting it go on as it was, serving sin, which is what the body of flesh, left to itself, will always do.

We, in our new creation, will always work acts of righteousness. But if we are not actively doing that, we provide the opportunity for the flesh to engage in sin as it always has and always will. Romans 6-8 are detailed in explaining these things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If a person is actually saying that he has already overcome sin, leave it alone.

But who among us would say that?

No one need say anything. We all say what we say. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and our words reveal us.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

But who among us would say that?

And why do you continue to ask the question? I certainly believe it is possible and would never deny it... that is, that a person through God working in them could stop sinning before the dirt is shoveled over them. All it would take would be complete surrender. Is that impossible? What is impossible for God in us?

 

[marks]

And why do you continue to ask the question? I certainly believe it is possible and would never deny it... that is, that a person through God working in them could stop sinning before the dirt is shoveled over them. All it would take would be complete surrender. Is that impossible? What is impossible for God in us?

Hi amadeus,

The fact is, the person I've asked does not wish to answer. I haven't asked others, only as they've wanted to join into the discussion. If you work your way back through my posts you will find what I've been responding to.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And why do you continue to ask the question? I certainly believe it is possible and would never deny it... that is, that a person through God working in them could stop sinning before the dirt is shoveled over them. All it would take would be complete surrender. Is that impossible? What is impossible for God in us?

Simply stated I've asked this question of episkopos. This was in response to one of his more recent claims that either we are entered into Christ and are therefore sinless, or we are pretenders, hypocrits, who have merely added another layer of sin. His words. And he recommends we simply remain ignorant of our true relationship with God. If find this teaching quite contrary to Scripture, and I ask, of him, are you then sinless? And if not, then are you not in Christ? Or are you ignorant of which you are?

To the one who teaches this, as ask, where do you fit into what you teach. But he does not answer, others want to chime in, but no one will address this particular point.

And I wonder . . . why is that? Because there is no answer?

Much love!

 

[aspen]

There are several people who post a lot here who believe they are sinless. I think they are confusing justification with sinlessness. Just because you can now hold court with the King doesn’t mean you are a well trained prince.

 

[amadeus]

@marks
Well I must then leave those questions between you and episkopos.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Simply stated I've asked this question of episkopos. This was in response to one of his more recent claims that either we are entered into Christ and are therefore sinless, or we are pretenders, hypocrits, who have merely added another layer of sin.

Once again, you are handling what he said dishonestly. You are presenting it as only an A or B option when he plainly, concisely and clearly gave another option - humility.

 

[Waiting on him]

Once again, you are handling what he said dishonestly. You are presenting it as only an A or B option when he plainly, concisely and clearly gave another option - humility.

How am I dishonest in what I’ve written?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How am I dishonest in what I’ve written?

Your quote was not meant to appear in my post. Not sure how it got there. I corrected the post. Sorry.

 

[Enoch111]

If find this teaching quite contrary to Scripture, and I ask, of him, are you then sinless?

Are you just finding out that Episkopos has invented (manufactured) his own theology? I have pointed this out a few times. Frankly, I don't waste time on his posts.

 

[Enoch111]

...that a person through God working in them could stop sinning before the dirt is shoveled over them.

The apostle Paul was an outstanding Christian and apostle. Yet even he did not claim that he was perfect. The high calling of God is perfection and this is what Paul said: I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil 3: 14)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Neither did Epi claim he is perfect. Although men keep insisting he has said it, he never said it. And yes, Paul never claimed he was perfect either.

Paul said if we abide (remain in Him), we do not sin. Of course, men don't believe that is possible, so they say: that is wrong. I abide in Him and I DO still sin, therefore, what Paul said is impossible.

What would make a man who searches things out with honesty come to that conclusion rather than saying: ah, then I must not be abiding in Him...

It's quite absurd, really. It's like...if a sign says: pay a fee and get on this boat, it will ferry you across to the other side of the river. You pay the fee and then stand on the shore waiting to be transported. You do not find yourself being transported. So you come to the conclusion that the sign lied instead of wondering why it didn't work and what you might have done wrong. You tell others the sign is a lie, and others tell you, oh, you have to actually get on the boat, but you insist, I WAS on the boat! In fact, I'm STILL on the boat!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And why do you continue to ask the question? I certainly believe it is possible and would never deny it... that is, that a person through God working in them could stop sinning before the dirt is shoveled over them.

Greatly struggling here over what is being said. 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Right before these verses of “hereforth know we no man after the flesh...” is
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

All dead ...to be...made alive in Christ. Either dead. Or alive in Christ. Either dead. Or alive in Christ. All have come short of the glory. If I’m understanding what is being said it is: “I certainly believe it is possible and would never deny it...that a person through God working in them” a New creature alive unto and in Christ, born of God...could “stop sinning before the dirt is shoveled over them”?

Is that correct? If “hereforth we know no man after the flesh...though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now hereforth know we Him no more...He is a new creature...” doesn’t that pertain to works of that which is dead are remembered no more but are dead whether they are consider holy and good or Not...in “the New Creature” God has made clean ...do not call it unclean?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Greatly struggling here over what is being said. 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Right before these verses of “hereforth know we no man after the flesh...” is
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

All dead ...to be...made alive in Christ. Either dead. Or alive in Christ. Either dead. Or alive in Christ. All have come short of the glory. If I’m understanding what is being said it is: “I certainly believe it is possible and would never deny it...that a person through God working in them” a New creature alive unto and in Christ, born of God...could “stop sinning before the dirt is shoveled over them”?

Is that correct? If “hereforth we know no man after the flesh...though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now hereforth know we Him no more...He is a new creature...” doesn’t that pertain to works of that which is dead are remembered no more but are dead whether they are consider holy and good or Not...in “the New Creature” God has made clean ...do not call it unclean?

No one has said having His Spirit in you is not eternal life. It is. In fact, because it is eternal life, that's the reason why being disqualified is such a terrifying thought. There is a reason why Jesus said it would be better for Sodom on the day of judgement than it would be for some other men. So here is a question: if (as men say)Sodom will live forever in eternal torment and the other men Jesus said would fare worse than Sodom will also live in that same eternal torment, how is it that He says it will be more tolerable for Sodom? Its a puzzling question.

 

[Episkopos]

No one has said having His Spirit in you is not eternal life. It is. In fact, because it is eternal life, that's the reason why being disqualified is such a terrifying thought. There is a reason why Jesus said it would be better for Sodom on the day of judgement than it would be for some other men. So here is a question: if (as men say)Sodom will live forever in eternal torment and the other men Jesus said would fare worse than Sodom will also live in that same eternal torment, how is it that He says it will be more tolerable for Sodom? Its a puzzling question.

Actually eternal life is only found when we enter INTO Christ to walk as He walked...in that same eternal power as He did...the perfected walk...the power of the life to come.

"Christ in you"...is the HOPE of glory...not the eternal life itself. To experience that eternal kind of life one must go further and enter INTO Christ.

And what is worse than the fate of Sodom? Well they will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed. But the cities that saw the works of Jesus and rejected Him will themselves be likewise rejected from the presence of God into outer darkness forever.

There is a weeping and gnashing of teeth preceding destruction...and then there is a weeping and gnashing of teeth in an ongoing way.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Actually eternal life is only found when we enter INTO Christ to walk as He walked...in that same eternal power as He did...the perfected walk...the power of the life to come.

Yes...born again of God from above...A New Creature. “His righteousness” Overcomes the world; being not of this world but the world to come. Do you agree that which is born of God is stable and sure being built on the foundation of Christ. That is all I want to know...hereforth from a New Creature...is it “know we no man after the flesh”? What is dead is dead...what is made alive is alive to live unto God?

2 Corinthians 5:16-17
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes...born again of God from above...A New Creature. “His righteousness” Overcomes the world; being not of this world but the world to come. Do you agree that which is born of God is stable and sure being built on the foundation of Christ. That is all I want to know...hereforth from a New Creature...is it “know we no man after the flesh”? What is dead is dead...what is made alive is alive to live unto God?

2 Corinthians 5:16-17
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

"Born again" is not the same as "mature again." Many who have been born again in our time have been seduced from the "simplicity" (single-minded purpose) of Christ. There is an overwhelming seduction of delusion in the churches of today that makes the truth seem foolish. And this was prophesied about. What people don't do is factor that in...or else refuse the truth even more so...since the truth to them sounds like the great delusion.

So the truth is safe with the humble and broken-hearted. The rich can't perceive the truth. Which is another thing to be factored in...our riches. Our attitude and smugness.

And many through indoctrination and pride will NOT listen to truthful instruction. They resist sound doctrine.

So I'm presenting the truth...but to many this seems like I'm making this stuff up. They judge me from themselves thinking I must be as in the dark as they are.

My advantage is that I have seen and experienced what the bible speaks of...whereas they who oppose my words show only that they have no such experience...just religious theories.

If you look at a map of a place you have never been...you don't notice the details because you have nothing to equate them with. They are theoretical to that person. But if you have seen and experienced the details on the map in real life...they take on a new meaning as you see them in contrast with other landmarks you have seen.

So then I am being a witness here...of Christ and His realm in the Spirit called the kingdom of God. Zion!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"Born again" is not the same as "mature again." Many who have been born again in our time have been seduced from the "simplicity" (single-minded purpose) of Christ. There is an overwhelming seduction of delusion in the churches of today that makes the truth seem foolish. And this was prophesied about. What people don't do is factor that in...or else refuse the truth even more so...since the truth to them sounds like the great delusion.

So the truth is safe with the humble and broken-hearted. The rich can't perceive the truth. Which is another thing to be factored in...our riches. Our attitude and smugness.

And many through indoctrination and pride will NOT listen to truthful instruction. They resist sound doctrine.

So I'm presenting the truth...but to many this seems like I'm making this stuff up. They judge me from themselves thinking I must be as in the dark as they are.

My advantage is that I have seen and experienced what the bible speaks of...whereas they who oppose my words show only that they have no such experience...just religious theories.

If you look at a map of a place you have never been...you don't notice the details because you have nothing to equate them with. They are theoretical to that person. But if you have seen and experienced the details on the map in real life...they take on a new meaning as you see them in contrast with other landmarks you have seen.

So then I am being a witness here...of Christ and His realm in the Spirit called the kingdom of God. Zion!

Is a New Creature secure and grounded in God...that is all I’m asking?

 

[marks]

Once again, you are handling what he said dishonestly. You are presenting it as only an A or B option when he plainly, concisely and clearly gave another option - humility.

And when you look at his post, his humility is in ignorance. The humility of not claiming to know. Or does he actually mean that he does know, but only pretends to not know for humility's sake? Just a question.

But the point is, again, the three options he gives are either you are in sinlessness, or you are a hypocrite, or you remain ignorant.

And this exact exchange has repeated now, so I'm not sure how you support your claim that I am being dishonest.