All the ELECT please stand up

Kermos · Sep 1, 2019

Kermos · Sep 1, 2019

GodsGrace said:
YOU claim we have no free will.
YOU must prove that we do not.

Your assertion is non-sequitor; in other words, your transfer of the proof requirement fails miserably.

First, free will for choosing toward God is not in Scripture; in fact, this has been proven out in the references in the first post of this page 61. To be even more specific, the references in the first post on this page PROVES OUT IN THE WORD OF GOD THAT THE SALVATION OF MAN IS THE EXCLUSIVE DOMAIN OF GOD! This has already been covered in this thread, GodsGrace.

Second, you fail to submit scripture for freewill to choose God. This has already been covered in this thread, GodsGrace.

Third, your deception is that you say you chose Jesus which is entirely contradicts of the King of Glory's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); furthermore, you do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings of which this is one of His sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48). This has already been covered in this thread, GodsGrace.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20).

GodsGrace · Sep 1, 2019

Kermos said:
Your assertion is non-sequitor; in other words, your transfer of the proof requirement fails miserably.

First, free will for choosing toward God is not in Scripture; in fact, this has been proven out in the references in the first post of this page 61. To be even more specific, the references in the first post on this page PROVES OUT IN THE WORD OF GOD THAT THE SALVATION OF MAN IS THE EXCLUSIVE DOMAIN OF GOD! This has already been covered in this thread, GodsGrace.

Second, you fail to submit scripture for freewill to choose God. This has already been covered in this thread, GodsGrace.

Third, your deception is that you say you chose Jesus which is entirely contradicts of the King of Glory's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); furthermore, you do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings of which this is one of His sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48). This has already been covered in this thread, GodsGrace.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20).

In your mind all is settled.
Fortunately for humanity...reality does not exist in your mind but in the N.T.

Exegete this:
Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,"

Earburner · Sep 1, 2019

Kermos said:
Your question contains a faulty presupposition. Your question contains your veiled assertion that God creates man with a free will capable of choosing God. There is no express scripture supporting such a notion, so this means that you must add free will to choose God to scripture, and that "add to" scripture carries eternal consequeces as it is written "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18, see also Deuteronomy 4:2) and "Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Your deception is that you say you chose Jesus which is entirely contradicts of the King of Glory's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); furthermore, you do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings of which this is one of His sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.
Rev. 22[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

Earburner · Sep 1, 2019

My error in my reply in the above.
I mean this:
Rev. 22[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

Kermos · Sep 1, 2019

Earburner said:
Rev. 22[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:17 is clearly about the consummation of the Christ with the Bride of Christ; furthermore, Lord Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), so only those under the authority of Lord Jesus can come (John 6:37). In Revelation 22:17, notice that "whosoever will" is absent in the NASB rendering "The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' And let the one who hears say, ?Come.' And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost", and so it goes with both the Received Text and the Majority Text, please see the Greek manuscripts. This is NOT about conversion from the dead in sin to life in Christ, so this is not about "choosing" Jesus for salvation.

EarBurner, please note that this has been covered previously in this thread.

Kermos · Sep 1, 2019

GodsGrace said:
In your mind all is settled.
Fortunately for humanity...reality does not exist in your mind but in the N.T.

Exegete this:
Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,"

Do not tell me what to do, GodsGrace. If you truly seek the Truth, then you will look at the 16th link down (including scripture citations) in the first post of this page 61.

You twisted Clement's words recently in this thread, and now you try to twist Moses words to fit your twisted theology that has no scriptural support.

Nancy (by her "like" of your post) and your deception is that you promote and you claim that you chose Jesus which entirely contradicts of the King of Glory's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); furthermore, you do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings of which this is one of His sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.

Earburner · Sep 1, 2019

Kermos said:
Revelation 22:17 is clearly about the consummation of the Christ with the Bride of Christ; furthermore, Lord Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), so only those under the authority of Lord Jesus can come (John 6:37). In Revelation 22:17, notice that "whosoever will" is absent in the NASB rendering "The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' And let the one who hears say, ?Come.' And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost", and so it goes with both the Received Text and the Majority Text, please see the Greek manuscripts. This is NOT about conversion from the dead in sin to life in Christ, so this is not about "choosing" Jesus for salvation.

EarBurner, please note that this has been covered previously in this thread.

In the conext of whatever the rendition, it still is "whosoever".
.
You may have covered the above in this thread, but your interpretation is still error!

Kermos · Sep 1, 2019

Earburner said:
In the conext of whatever the rendition, it still is "whosoever".
.
You may have covered the above in this thread, but your interpretation is still error!

Well, Earburner, you are in error since you say "whosoever", which free willers try to use as a promiscuos and permissive word, because there is no Greek word there for "whosoever". I hope you are not going to start writing a lie about Revelation because the penalty for a lie about Revelation is right as the Apostle John wrote "if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18). In reality, the NASB translation is very close with "let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost" (Revelation 22:17) for which a single Greek word translates to English as "one wishes" or "one desires", that context is attraction according to Lord Jesus' words of "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) thus there is no promiscuos and permissive sense, so a person cannot "desire" the water of life without the Lord Jesus; regardless, this is NOT about salvation since a person cannot "choose" Lord Jesus because Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so "the one" mentioned in Revelation 22:17 are already chosen/elect by Lord Jesus.

This has been covered in this thread, and you repeat error by trying to use Revelation 22:17 as a proof text for a person to choose Jesus, that is, do the impossible for man (Matthew 19:25-26).

Nancy · Sep 1, 2019

Kermos said:
Do not tell me what to do, GodsGrace. If you truly seek the Truth, then you will look at the 16th link down (including scripture citations) in the first post of this page 61.

You twisted Clement's words recently in this thread, and now you try to twist Moses words to fit your twisted theology that has no scriptural support.

Nancy (by her "like" of your post) and your deception is that you promote and you claim that you chose Jesus which entirely contradicts of the King of Glory's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); furthermore, you do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings of which this is one of His sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.

Hello Kermos,
I have to wonder where evangelization comes into play, considering your belief/understanding of how one is saved. The apostles were sure on fire to get the Gospel out there and, we are also to obey the Great Commission, yes? I am sorry, I just don't see how or even why one with your beliefs would care about sharing the Gospel since, it has been said and done...the elect will be saved, case closed. Nothing even they themselves can do about it, as they are so compelled to the point of an irresistible force to follow God.
So, if I may ask, where do you stand on sharing the Gospel? Are you passionate about it like the apostles? Can you tell just anybody that God loves them, and mean that, know that?
No offence meant here! It is just a curious thing to me.
God Bless,
nancy
P.S. @Kermos - how would you, in your own experience describe Irresistible Grace?

Earburner · Sep 1, 2019

Kermos said:
Well, Earburner, you are in error since you say "whosoever", which free willers try to use as a promiscuos and permissive word, because there is no Greek word there for "whosoever". I hope you are not going to start writing a lie about Revelation because the penalty for a lie about Revelation is right as the Apostle John wrote "if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18). In reality, the NASB translation is very close with "let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost" (Revelation 22:17) for which a single Greek word translates to English as "one wishes" or "one desires", that context is attraction according to Lord Jesus' words of "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) thus there is no promiscuos and permissive sense, so a person cannot "desire" the water of life without the Lord Jesus; regardless, this is NOT about salvation since a person cannot "choose" Lord Jesus because Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so "the one" mentioned in Revelation 22:17 are already chosen/elect by Lord Jesus.

This has been covered in this thread, and you repeat error by trying to use Revelation 22:17 as a proof text for a person to choose Jesus, that is, do the impossible for man (Matthew 19:25-26).

OK, I can see that you have found room to squirm around Rev. 22:17. So, I shall add to that with Heb. 2[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Earburner · Sep 1, 2019

Kermos, i don't you truly understand Christ's words, when He said in Mat.22[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

Earburner · Sep 1, 2019

^Correctioin: ..."I don't think you..."

Earburner · Sep 1, 2019

I hate spell check!! One makes mistakes trying to fix its errors!!

atpollard · Sep 1, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Nice to see you A.
One of the VERY FEW calvinists I can actually have a conversation with.
Most will post silly cartoons, not answer, or insult. Got banned from you know where just for saying what I believe -- but it's a little club over there so I don't really care.

The question was not for YOU....and I wouldn't expect you to read back.

Here's the question I really would like an answer to.
Calvinism is based on total depravity and the absence of free will.
Theological free will....libertarian free will.

What I'd like to know is when do you think free will was taken away from man?
In the garden? Later?

I had asked WHERE, WHEN, OR HOW.

I never get an answer and I think it's because, really, free will was never taken away, which, of course, is what I believe.

Also, I'm called an Arminian.
If I had to tell you right now what an Arminian believes, I wouldn't be able to.
I feel that I read the bible and just believe it in a very simple and plain way.

Funny that you should ask THAT particular question. I just finished a “wall of text” post discussing that exact issue ... Total Inability (aka Total Depravity) from Genesis 1 to 4. Someone challenged me to defend the “T” of TULIP and I didn’t want to just rehash the same old proof-texts, so I focused on where the problem started.

I will post it on a topic here for you.

The “Reader’s Digest” answer to ‘Calvinism’ vs ‘Arminianism’ goes something like this ...

Calvinist: God calls only the people that God chose because no one else can or will hear and obey the call of God (God chooses whomever God wants).

Arminian: God calls everyone and gives everyone a chance to be saved, but only some people make the choice to be saved (the people accept God’s offer).

Here are verses that make both sides clear:

[John 3:16-21 NASB]
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

If you read that and focus on “God so loved the world” (v16) and “whosoever believes” (v16) and “the world might be saved” (v17), then you see scripture through Arminian Colored Glasses (God calls all and some choose to respond).

If you read that and focus on “men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil” (v19) and “everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light” (v20) and “having been wrought in God” (v21), then you see scripture through Calvinist Colored Glasses (God must DRAW men to Christ, because all men will choose to hide from God if given a choice.)

All of that is one paragraph in most Bibles, but few people focus on all of the verses in that paragraph. Most people see either “the world” or “hates the light” more clearly than the other.

atpollard · Sep 1, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Here's the question I really would like an answer to.
Calvinism is based on total depravity and the absence of free will.
Theological free will....libertarian free will.

What I'd like to know is when do you think free will was taken away from man?
In the garden? Later?

I had asked WHERE, WHEN, OR HOW.

Here is an answer:

Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

Nancy · Sep 1, 2019

Earburner said:
I hate spell check!! One makes mistakes trying to fix its errors!!

Hahaha, yes, it's annoying!

GodsGrace · Sep 2, 2019

Kermos said:
Do not tell me what to do, GodsGrace. If you truly seek the Truth, then you will look at the 16th link down (including scripture citations) in the first post of this page 61.

You twisted Clement's words recently in this thread, and now you try to twist Moses words to fit your twisted theology that has no scriptural support.

Nancy (by her "like" of your post) and your deception is that you promote and you claim that you chose Jesus which entirely contradicts of the King of Glory's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); furthermore, you do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings of which this is one of His sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.

Oh my.
Once again INSULTS and NO RESPONSE.

Yes. It IS difficult to respond to the truth.

Which words of Moses did I twist BTW?
Maybe YOU are twisting words...which is what is necessary to believe calvinism.

OzSpen · Sep 2, 2019

atpollard said:
Funny that you should ask THAT particular question. I just finished a “wall of text” post discussing that exact issue ... Total Inability (aka Total Depravity) from Genesis 1 to 4. Someone challenged me to defend the “T” of TULIP and I didn’t want to just rehash the same old proof-texts, so I focused on where the problem started.

I will post it on a topic here for you.

The “Reader’s Digest” answer to ‘Calvinism’ vs ‘Arminianism’ goes something like this ...

Calvinist: God calls only the people that God chose because no one else can or will hear and obey the call of God (God chooses whomever God wants).

Arminian: God calls everyone and gives everyone a chance to be saved, but only some people make the choice to be saved (the people accept God’s offer).

Here are verses that make both sides clear:

[John 3:16-21 NASB]
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

If you read that and focus on “God so loved the world” (v16) and “whosoever believes” (v16) and “the world might be saved” (v17), then you see scripture through Arminian Colored Glasses (God calls all and some choose to respond).

If you read that and focus on “men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil” (v19) and “everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light” (v20) and “having been wrought in God” (v21), then you see scripture through Calvinist Colored Glasses (God must DRAW men to Christ, because all men will choose to hide from God if given a choice.)

All of that is one paragraph in most Bibles, but few people focus on all of the verses in that paragraph. Most people see either “the world” or “hates the light” more clearly than the other.

at,

How are people 'drawn' to Christ?

How many are 'drawn'?

Is a genuine choice involved or is it a forced election to salvation?

Oz

GodsGrace · Sep 2, 2019

Earburner said:
I hate spell check!! One makes mistakes trying to fix its errors!!

and wastes a lot of time....
it could be shut off on some devices...

All the ELECT please stand up

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