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Marymog

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Well, Patient Mary, I told you already - I can't answer for what Methodists or Lutherans, etc., believe or preach. I find a church whose statement of faith is scriptural - based on doctrine found in the bible - and go there. I've attended Presbyterian, Disciples of Christ, Baptist churches and they've all had the same beliefs.

I know I'm following Christ.
Huh......Sooooo you are the final authority on what Church is following Scripture and has the true doctrine found in the bible.

Our search is over....
 

Marymog

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Let's pretend you've passed away (peacefully) :) and you're standing at the gate of heaven and you're asked why you should be allowed to enter.

What's your answer?
Answer my question first and I will answer yours.....

Who decides what the doctrines are relating to salvation?
 

Nancy

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Aw c'mon, it wasn't about winning; wasn't it about how far we could keep it going (since we had 'endless chips')?

I know you've got at least one more in there; the others were too good to not have any more now ;)

Okay, I'll try to squeeze one more out, don't want to derail this thread anymore that we already have, lol...
Ultramacronondenominilationalismisticalation. :)
 
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Helen

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If your not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox your Protestant.

broad definition of Protestant: a Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church

Sooooo you ARE protestant

tMary

Well I learned something today. :)

I didn't know that was the definition. But I checked, and lo you are right.
I thought I was just nondenominational ...a follower of Christ .
I did not know that by default I was protestant . lol
 
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illini1959

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Answer my question first and I will answer yours.....

Who decides what the doctrines are relating to salvation?

So much for trying to get you to think for yourself, but ok.

There is one thing only that will send a person to Hell.

Not receiving Christ.
 
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illini1959

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Huh......Sooooo you are the final authority on what Church is following Scripture and has the true doctrine found in the bible.

Our search is over....

Ah. Catholic.

I'm a believer indwelt by the Holy Spirit, Mary.

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

As such -

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

Your search is only over when you find the Truth.
 
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101G

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GINOLJC, to all. God asked us to be one thing and one thing only, scripture, 1 Peter 1:13 "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
1 Peter 1:14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:"
1 Peter 1:15 "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;"
1 Peter 1:16 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

for only those who are holy will make the first resurrection. scripture, Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, (might want to read that again), but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." and there are only two, and the first resurrection is on going right now as we speak, for it is two fold. it started on the day of Pentecost and only end when he returs in bodily form and complete it by rising the dead in him first and us who remain... changed.

so being a certain denomination is useless, only be holy. as Peter said, "As obedient children". and obedient demands knowledge and understanding. for the scriptures are true, Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

the blue bold in Hosea 4:6 connect what one should be in Revelation 20:6. be "holy", the proof is, "ARE YOU HIS PRIEST?"
PICJAG.
 

illini1959

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if it’s scriptural, then show us all where “faith alone” is found. Saved by faith? Yes.
“Faith alone”? It’s not in the Bible. So, show us. Should t be hard if it’s so called “scriptural”.

you didn’t and I never said you did. I was just showing you things that are actually NOT BIBLICAL.


I never said you did. I was responding to you saying....works based salvation is not biblical. You said I took passages out of context, then go line by line and show me how I did that.
God said...he ACCEPTS those that fear him and WORKS righteousness. If you want salvation you must WORK something in some way.
HE DIDNT SAY... fear him and receives him by faith alone

how many times were the Ephesians baptized? If you are correct they would not have ever been baptized, especially more than once. I’m amazed at the number of people who will read someone else’s mail and then not examine their actual life to see what they actually did to be saved...”by grace through faith”. You just assume you know and you call it “bible study”.

why would you have to work AFTER salvation? If it’s not needed to begin with then why is it needed at all?

Odd that, as knowledgeable as you claim to be, you don't know why.

We do good works after salvation because -

The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. Titus 3:8

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10

you made the claim that “baptism doesn’t save”. I then gave you a direct translation that says the exact opposite of what you claimed. Haha. If it’s out of context then feel free to show how. You people dream of having a verse that says.....”faith alone doth also save us”.
But you don’t. And you reject the one that point blank describes baptism in EXACTLY that way.

Talking about taking a passage out of context!
What is the context of 1 Cor 1:10-18? Division!
They were dividing up by who baptized them. And Paul was reproving them for this. The fewer people he baptized the fewer people would be claiming....”I am of Paul”. It had nothing to do with whether or not baptism was essential. Actually, when you really study the context you’ll find that the passage is teaching the essentiality of baptism. Let’s study..
1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
What we learn here is that....if you want to be “of Christ”, two things had to happen.
1. Christ had to be crucified for you. He was
2. You then need to be baptized “in the name of Christ”. Not Paul. And, baptism “in the name of Christ” is FOR the remission of sins. Acts 2:38 You weren’t, so therefore you are not “of Christ” or belong to Christ.
This is how you show somebody that they “took something out of context”.

I know what 1 Cor 10 is talking about, yet the fact remains if salvation was essential, Paul wouldn't 'thank God' he didn't baptize any of them. Baptism symbolizes death in Christ and new life in Him for the believer. Not salvific.

You want to talk about taking a verse out of context? Ok. Catholics love James 2:24 but refuse to see anything but that one verse; nothing before, nothing after.

Read this closely:

vs 14-17 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James is talking to his brethren. You know what that means? That means he's talking to believers. They're already saved. He's telling them if they're saved but not doing anything - not bearing fruit - are they really saved? Can that kind of faith save them?

There are tons of verses that show one's faith has saved them. Faith with no other qualifier. But catholics need the word "alone".

You know what words catholics don't need?

Purgatory
Assumption
Perpetual virgin
Full of Grace (as it supposedly pertains to Mary)

None of that is in the bible but you don't need those words, do you?

Where does the Bible say that?
I see the Bible saying....
...He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
...Unless you repent you will all likewise perish
...Unless you confess me before men I won’t confess you before my father which is in heaven.
...repent and be baptized FOR the remission of sins
...arise, be baptized and WASH away thy sins, calling on the name of the lord.
...whosoever shall call on the name of the lord shall be saved.
...baptism doth also now save us
...receive the WORD which is able to SAVE your soul.
...unless one is born of water and the Spirit they cannot enter the kingdom.
...we are saved by hope
...we are saved by the blood
...we are saved by his life
...we are saved by grace
...there is no condemnation to those who are “in Christ”
...we are baptized “into Christ”.
All of these are verses in the Bible. All of these are verses you reject, because you said we are saved by “faith alone” and clearly when you look above you’ll see salvation is by NOTHING “alone”!!

Then your salvation of of men, not God. To become saved, one just needs faith, which is a gift from God.

I don't reject any verse, just the those used out of context to support someone's eisegesis.

Your list is sporadic. You have verses pertaining to believers (Romans 8:1) and non-believers (Acts 2:38)

We are saved by His life, blood, grace but all those are found in One Person. You act like there's 35 (random #) separate steps to salvation.

There's One and they're all found in Jesus, not us. No works by humans can begin to add to what Christ has done.
 

Naomi25

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Hi Naomi25, sorry for the delay in the response.
Well this thread was ok for a little while. It was worth a shot...
I'm with you on the comforting of that idea. I always thought of that verse in Revelation to mean any person in this world could be joined to Jesus (the bride, if you will), regardless of how they were brought up and where, and to who; I never did think it applied to those already Christian, but this context gives it additional meaning.

I've never thought of it another way. Although I suppose how you think of it is sort of implied, really, isn't it? If...then...? But, regardless of when that 'vision' of a great multitude in heaven was seen, it had to be true, it still must be true and it always will be true. God always had a way of bringing many to him, even 'gentiles' before Christ. After Christ we have had 2000 years of people from pretty much every tribe, tongue and nation claiming him. We must remember that the gospel is cyclical. It started in the Middle East, sweeping across Asia and Africa and then Europe before travelling to the Americas. And as it travelled to the Americas it lost its grip in what was once called the craddle of civilization, where Christianity was pushed out by Islam. Islam then followed more or less the same path Christianity did, down into Africa, encroaching into the Asian regions and now pushing at the boarders of Europe. But, in the nature of God, Christianity is now being re-birthed where Christ first walked! the Middle East is coming alive again! Africa and Asia is experiencing massive revivals!
My point being, just because there are remote places in the world where the gospel doesn't seem to have reached today, doesn't mean it didn't go there at some point in the past. Doesn't mean it won't again in the future. God is intent when he says he will claim people from all tribes and nations of the earth. I think he has already done it, and I think he will continue to do so. Heaven will be multi-hued in a reflection of his glory and image.

Sure? Why not. The earliest Christians were known as the 'sect of the Nazarene', which I'm thinking of joining cause my present denom, the non-denom Christians, are a denom too ;) I can't make up my mind now, arggghhh, am I a non-denom, or an anti-denom! Ugh, I'll just go with 'sect of the Nazarene' lol
Eh. I think people get too worked up about denominations and brands and stuff like that. Just make sure the place you're getting your teaching in is preaching the word, the whole counsel of it, and not doing any funky stuff...and you're good.
I mean...I like my theology...and I like it good. But when it comes down to it, if your church is sticking to the essentials and loving God and others like Jesus would, I think we need to give some leeway and grace on other things.


No way sister-in-Sect-of-the-Nazarene (ha, like what I did there :D ), I'm not good enough for that...you have much better linguistics and sound like a much better public speaker - you got this! ;)
Snort! If only you knew! In 'real life' I'm mostly too strung up by anxiety to have a conversation with anyone about the weather, let alone heavier matters. Maybe I don't feel like a moron here everytime I open my mouth because I don't...open my mouth, that is. Typing lets you...weigh your words a little...before you pour them forth.

Go back to the basics? That'd be my starting place - the foundation. Then rebuild to where the dilemma is, to then narrow it back down to the basics - lots of downs, then ups, and down, then up again lol.

Maybe...that might work. Except...no one is really addressing it. Our Church is this really strange old-time conservative type Church. Most related to each other. Which sounds weird, but mostly its nice and the fellowship, while staid, is comfortable. But now we're sort of blinking at each other in bafflement and not really talking about the elephant in the room. And if it is talked about, it's done in swift, vague sentences, because everyone is scared to be seen to be gossips. Or making it worse. And I roll my eyes a little, because something like this not directly addressed can be rot that sets into a foundation. I think. Or creates a brittleness, just waiting for the next little thing to make it splinter into a thousand pieces. But, I had nothing to do with the issue, so me trying to nudge anything to happen would be sticking my nose in and I'm not a deacon. I can only pray at this point. :(


It does weigh on me too. And that was the reason for the thread I guess. Jesus is out to love us and save us, so what do doctrinal matters...matter, if they don't undo the essentials, especially those that can be corrected easily once we are in His presence, and His earthly Kingdom thereafter.

But as you said, we won't know until we're with Him, if we're with Him of course. It's up to Him ultimately.
Yup!

Agreed. Ugh, the Jews, they're killing me. I've heard that they are forbidden to read the NT. Which prevents them from knowing the new covenant, which is Jesus. And he who denies the Son, denies the Father 1 John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." So they're anti-christ at the moment, disobediant to their God that they acknowledge, but also are denying in reality. I think this is one of the reasons for the events in Revelation - to turn to the Messiah, well, at least some of them I guess.

As to the Christians that don't really know Him, I agree too. Jesus' own words did say that "few find it" in Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.".

It's a lot to handle, for sure. Again it's ultimately up to Jesus, so there's comfort there I think in that I know/have faith, that He will do right regardless of my understanding (or lack thereof).
Man...I wonder how many of them read the NT just because they get told they can't? I'd probably be in that crowd. You'd have to think they wonder about this 'new covenant' that was promised, just as much as the Messiah!
I think Romans 11 suggests many Jews might, towards the end, come, in large numbers, to Christ. I pray that is true...what a revival that would be! What a witness to the world!

I'd go even more basic, though inclusive of what you're saying. I brought them up in the original post though, so no need for me to have a reason to keep blathering on...;)

Agreed overall.

I dream of that day! I cannot wait for that day, for the struggle to be over. And, and, no more taxes! :D
Amen!
 

CNKW3

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Odd that, as knowledgeable as you claim to be, you don't know why.

We do good works after salvation because -

The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. Titus 3:8

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10
Let’s read the three verses previous to Titus 3:8...
Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
How were these people saved? By the washing of regeneration.
So, what is.....”THE (not a) washing of regeneration”? Does this not describe being “born again”, raised to a new life, becoming a “new creature”, having sins removed, blotted out, made alive? If not, then why not? Can a person be “regenerated” and still be in their sins?
And, AFTER this “washing of regeneration, Paul describes the process as...”being justified by his grace”!

Wouldn’t this passage above be parallel to Eph 5:26?
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
To be born again one MUST be born of water and the Spirit. Isn’t that what Paul is describing in Titus 3:5 and Eph 5:26? Again, if not, why not. Why would it be different? Is Paul teaching different doctrines?

Is baptism a “work of righteousness that we do? If it is then faith is too based on Jn 6:28,29 since both faith and baptism are described as “works” of God. Jn 6, Col 2:12.

When is one... “born again”? Before or after water? Jn 3:5
When is one....“raised to walk in newness of life”? Before or after baptism? Rom 6
When is one... “made free from sin? Before or after obedience in Rom 6:17,18 (referring to baptism)
When is one.... “quickened”, “made alive”? Before or after baptism? Col 2:11-13
When is ones.... “sins remitted”? Before or after baptism? Acts 2:38
When is ones.... “sins blotted out”? Before or after repentance and conversion? Acts 3:19
When is ones.... “sins washed away”? Before or after baptism? Acts 22:16
When is one...described to have.. “called on the name of the lord”? Before or after baptism? Acts 22:16
When is one.... “saved”? Mk 16:15,16. Before or after baptism?

You want to talk about taking a verse out of context? Ok. Catholics love James 2:24 but refuse to see anything but that one verse; nothing before, nothing after.

Read this closely:

vs 14-17 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James is talking to his brethren. You know what that means? That means he's talking to believers. They're already saved. He's telling them if they're saved but not doing anything - not bearing fruit - are they really saved? Can that kind of faith save them?
Why did you go back so far? He ties vs 24 to Abraham. People teach that Abraham was saved...”by faith alone”. But this is how James explains it.
James 2:20-23 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
I thought Abraham was “justified by faith”? No, Abraham was justified by “perfect faith”, a faith that does what God says, an obedient faith, not some mental acceptance of God. You cannot be saved without obedience.

There are tons of verses that show one's faith has saved them. Faith with no other qualifier. But catholics need the word "alone".
if we follow your logic then we have to conclude that we can add the word “alone” to any other verse like acts 17:31 that says God commands all men everywhere to REPENT. since there are no other qualifiers we should add the word “ALONE”, therefore being saved by repentance alone without faith. In Lk 13:3. Jesus said...unless you repent you will all like wise perish. This must mean...repent alone?
Paul said...if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved. According to your logic we can “add” the word alone meaning now that repentance is no longer required since it wasn’t mentioned. Uh, oh, we now seem to have a contradiction.
The truth is....the Bible in a number of places from beginning to end tells us we are to NOT add to or take away from the word of God. You are doing just that.
You know what words catholics don't need?

Purgatory
Assumption
Perpetual virgin
Full of Grace (as it supposedly pertains to Mary)

None of that is in the bible but you don't need those words, do you?
I’m not catholic. I think they are a corrupt and horrible religion.
But, there’s no “sinners prayer” in the Bible either which I’m sure you probably believe that’s all one has to do is believe and “ask God for forgiveness”.

Your list is sporadic. You have verses pertaining to believers (Romans 8:1) and non-believers (Acts 2:38)
Every letter written after Acts is to believers. Every verse you are using is written to people who are already saved. He is not telling these people how to be saved. If you want that information you have to go to the book of Acts. Do you want to know what those in Ephesus did to be saved? Then go to the book of Acts and not their letter.
Acts 2:38 tells us how to be saved.
Rom 8:1 explains more about what being “saved” means. If you are “in Christ” then there is now no condemnation. BUT, how did they get “into Christ”? He told us two chapters earlier....they were baptized “into Christ”. So, now both acts 2:38 and Rom 8:1 are in complete harmony.

We are saved by His life, blood, grace but all those are found in One Person. You act like there's 35 (random #) separate steps to salvation.
i was just making the point that you can’t add the word “alone” to any one of those passages. But if we follow your logic then we must since there were no other “qualifiers” in the verse. I’m just highlighting the absurdity of your argument.

There's One and they're all found in Jesus, not us. No works by humans can begin to add to what Christ has done.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Here is the key.....
Christ came to save us or redeem us from our sins.
At what point does the Bible, under the new covenant, say that our sins have been forgiven? The Bible tells us that our sins have been....washed away, remitted, forgiven, made free from, at a certain point in time.
And, WHAT POINT IS THAT? If you will answer this question we will have our answer. Show me how our sins are forgiven at the point we “accept Christ as our saviour”. Nobody on this board has answered this question yet. The reason? Because they know what the answer will mean to their false doctrine.
 

illini1959

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Let’s read the three verses previous to Titus 3:8...
Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
How were these people saved? By the washing of regeneration.
So, what is.....”THE (not a) washing of regeneration”? Does this not describe being “born again”, raised to a new life, becoming a “new creature”, having sins removed, blotted out, made alive? If not, then why not? Can a person be “regenerated” and still be in their sins?
And, AFTER this “washing of regeneration, Paul describes the process as...”being justified by his grace”!

Wouldn’t this passage above be parallel to Eph 5:26?
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
To be born again one MUST be born of water and the Spirit. Isn’t that what Paul is describing in Titus 3:5 and Eph 5:26? Again, if not, why not. Why would it be different? Is Paul teaching different doctrines?

Is baptism a “work of righteousness that we do? If it is then faith is too based on Jn 6:28,29 since both faith and baptism are described as “works” of God. Jn 6, Col 2:12.

When is one... “born again”? Before or after water? Jn 3:5
When is one....“raised to walk in newness of life”? Before or after baptism? Rom 6
When is one... “made free from sin? Before or after obedience in Rom 6:17,18 (referring to baptism)
When is one.... “quickened”, “made alive”? Before or after baptism? Col 2:11-13
When is ones.... “sins remitted”? Before or after baptism? Acts 2:38
When is ones.... “sins blotted out”? Before or after repentance and conversion? Acts 3:19
When is ones.... “sins washed away”? Before or after baptism? Acts 22:16
When is one...described to have.. “called on the name of the lord”? Before or after baptism? Acts 22:16
When is one.... “saved”? Mk 16:15,16. Before or after baptism?

Where are you going with this? You asked why we do good works after salvation and I answered. Why the discourse on regeneration/baptism?

Why did you go back so far? He ties vs 24 to Abraham. People teach that Abraham was saved...”by faith alone”. But this is how James explains it.
James 2:20-23 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
I thought Abraham was “justified by faith”? No, Abraham was justified by “perfect faith”, a faith that does what God says, an obedient faith, not some mental acceptance of God. You cannot be saved without obedience.

James 2 is talking about works and reward and is contrasting a faith that saves vs a faith that is dead.

if we follow your logic then we have to conclude that we can add the word “alone” to any other verse like acts 17:31 that says God commands all men everywhere to REPENT. since there are no other qualifiers we should add the word “ALONE”, therefore being saved by repentance alone without faith. In Lk 13:3. Jesus said...unless you repent you will all like wise perish. This must mean...repent alone?
Paul said...if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved. According to your logic we can “add” the word alone meaning now that repentance is no longer required since it wasn’t mentioned. Uh, oh, we now seem to have a contradiction.
The truth is....the Bible in a number of places from beginning to end tells us we are to NOT add to or take away from the word of God. You are doing just that.

I've never advocated adding (or taking away) one word from scripture. I said catholics are the ones who want the word added. My point is there are many passages telling you that we're saved by faith with no other qualifier. Where you get I said that means you can add the word alone is only known to you.

I’m not catholic. I think they are a corrupt and horrible religion.
But, there’s no “sinners prayer” in the Bible either which I’m sure you probably believe that’s all one has to do is believe and “ask God for forgiveness”.
Good you're not catholic, not sure what you are.

The "sinners prayer" is merely what people call Romans 10:9-10. Not a stretch by any means.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Why is that so hard?

Every letter written after Acts is to believers. Every verse you are using is written to people who are already saved. He is not telling these people how to be saved. If you want that information you have to go to the book of Acts. Do you want to know what those in Ephesus did to be saved? Then go to the book of Acts and not their letter.
Acts 2:38 tells us how to be saved.
Rom 8:1 explains more about what being “saved” means. If you are “in Christ” then there is now no condemnation. BUT, how did they get “into Christ”? He told us two chapters earlier....they were baptized “into Christ”. So, now both acts 2:38 and Rom 8:1 are in complete harmony.

There are unbelievers within those churches, just like today. Every verse is not written to people who are already saved; Paul and the others write plenty to unbelievers.


i was just making the point that you can’t add the word “alone” to any one of those passages. But if we follow your logic then we must since there were no other “qualifiers” in the verse. I’m just highlighting the absurdity of your argument.

Yeah see above.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Here is the key.....
Christ came to save us or redeem us from our sins.
At what point does the Bible, under the new covenant, say that our sins have been forgiven? The Bible tells us that our sins have been....washed away, remitted, forgiven, made free from, at a certain point in time.
And, WHAT POINT IS THAT? If you will answer this question we will have our answer. Show me how our sins are forgiven at the point we “accept Christ as our saviour”. Nobody on this board has answered this question yet. The reason? Because they know what the answer will mean to their false doctrine.

There is no salvation without forgiveness. We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; Christ took that sin debt and nailed it to the cross. We're forgiven. What do you think Romans 8:1 means? Believers are saved from the condemnation of sin. Now. Not later.

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. Acts 10:43

When you you think you're forgiven?

Apparently not at the point you "accept Christ as our saviour".

Quotes noted.
 

Nondenom40

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If your not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox your Protestant.

broad definition of Protestant: a Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church

Sooooo you ARE protestant

Mary
Sorry, not true. We are christians. Who was the protestor in 1055 your church or the E.O.? If theres ever gonna be unity between your two 'one true churches' whose gonna blink and claim they were not led of the Holy Spirit?
 

Nondenom40

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Well I learned something today. :)

I didn't know that was the definition. But I checked, and lo you are right.
I thought I was just nondenominational ...a follower of Christ .
I did not know that by default I was protestant . lol
If youre a born again believer in Jesus youre a christian. In 1517 protestant meant something vastly different than it does today. Today they (whomever they are) lumped anyone not a catholic into a this group called protestant. This includes mormons, jw's, oneness pentacostals and others who are not christian in the least. So, while i do 'protest' false gospels i reject the term itself. I like you call myself nondenom but thats simply because i've never liked labels. Call me a christian, thats a label i'd wear proudly.
 

marksman

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This is what happens when people take verses at face value and out of context.

A very good point Illini. And that is where most of the teaching in the church falls down. How many times have you heard a preacher start his sermon by saying "My text for today is" and then he quotes one verse of scripture and then rambles on what he thinks the verse means throwing in a few illustrations about what he thinks it means that came out of the ark?

My chosen approach is "Today, I want to talk about the subject of prayer so let's see where it leads us. First of all, prayer is mentioned 246 times in the New Testament so it shows us how important it is."

"Second, it says to pray without ceasing. Have you ever thought just what that means? If you know what it means your prayer life will get a big boost."

"And third, we know from reading scripture that prayer changes things. So let's see what we have to do to be a prayer changing church."

"We are not going to get through all this today, so, back to number one and see how we go. Let's look at some of the verses about prayer to see if we can get an idea of why prayer is so important. John, can you look up Tiglathpileser chapter 3 verse 17 and read it out for us?"

John reads the text. "Now, can anyone tell me what they think is the key point about this verse? There is no right and wrong answer so have a go."

Expert advice from the educationalists tells us our power of concentration is 20 minutes. Beyond that, it is anyone's guess what goes in and what filters out. I can't tell you how many times a person has said to me "Wasn't that a wonderful sermon?" and my reply is "what was it all about?" and the reply is "I can't remember" which is not surprising if it was a long sermon as you not only forget the anything after 20 minutes, you forget the first 20 minutes. I learned that at uni training to be a teacher.

As a teacher, I only once went over the 20-minute mark and boy did the students let me know.

Another important point they taught us is to verbally get involved in the subject and teaching others means you learn more yourself. Asking people to share their thoughts is teaching others. When they do that they own the subject matter and feel more confident about telling others. You remember more of what you say than what you hear.
 

4Jesus

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Okay, I'll try to squeeze one more out, don't want to derail this thread anymore that we already have, lol...
Ultramacronondenominilationalismisticalation. :)

Eh, all threads derail- it's conversations, it's going to ebb and flow. Plus, it was derailed a couple of pages ago, and not by us ;)

I was going to use "macro" in response to your "micro", but then didn't want to match where you were going, so I held off. I shoulda... Awesome one, and the "isticalation", hahaha!

Alright, here we go (*rubbing my hands together*) supercalifragilisticexpialidociousundenonminationalnondenominationalismness

:)
 
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Nancy

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Eh, all threads derail- it's conversations, it's going to ebb and flow. Plus, it was derailed a couple of pages ago, and not by us ;)

I was going to use "macro" in response to your "micro", but then didn't want to match where you were going, so I held off. I shoulda... Awesome one, and the "isticalation", hahaha!

Alright, here we go (*rubbing my hands together*) supercalifragilisticexpialidociousundenonminationalnondenominationalismness

:)

Um...yeah, you win!
h04F96E63

:D
 
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CNKW3

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Where are you going with this? You asked why we do good works after salvation and I answered. Why the discourse on regeneration/baptism?



James 2 is talking about works and reward and is contrasting a faith that saves vs a faith that is dead.



I've never advocated adding (or taking away) one word from scripture. I said catholics are the ones who want the word added. My point is there are many passages telling you that we're saved by faith with no other qualifier. Where you get I said that means you can add the word alone is only known to you.


Good you're not catholic, not sure what you are.

The "sinners prayer" is merely what people call Romans 10:9-10. Not a stretch by any means.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Why is that so hard?



There are unbelievers within those churches, just like today. Every verse is not written to people who are already saved; Paul and the others write plenty to unbelievers.




Yeah see above.



There is no salvation without forgiveness. We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; Christ took that sin debt and nailed it to the cross. We're forgiven. What do you think Romans 8:1 means? Believers are saved from the condemnation of sin. Now. Not later.

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. Acts 10:43

When you you think you're forgiven?

Apparently not at the point you "accept Christ as our saviour".

Quotes noted.
I am providing passage after passage and you won’t deal with any of them. I asked 6 or 7 before or after questions that you passed on. You now say all Cornelius had to do was “believe” which you must mean “mental ascent” and his sins would be forgiven, even though he was immediately baptized in the name of the lord. You have Peter now preaching a totally different doctrine then the one he preached on pentecost. On Pentecost, baptism “in the name of Jesus” was FOR the remission of sins. It was and is and always will be.

You even said that Rom 10:9,10 is a prayer? You have to pray out loud? You confess with the mouth for the benefit of others, not God. God knows what your gonna say before you say it. What did the Eunuch in acts 8 do? Pray out loud to God? No, for the benefit of Philip he said...I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. He was then baptized in water.

Show me one thing Paul wrote to an unbeliever. Maybe he addressed believers who had sinned or fallen away, but every letter was addressed to Christians. Show us the one that wasn’t.

This will be the final thing I deal with. You specifically said....
There are tons of verses that show one's faith has saved them. Faith with no other qualifier. But catholics need the word "alone".”
I highlighted the important part. You just said that since it says “faith with no other qualifier” YOU JUST IMPLIED that it is “faith alone”! So you are lying about what you said. This is why I posted those verses WITHOUT QUALIFIERS, because if one verse doesn’t have a qualifier and it means “alone” then the others do too. This is the absurdity I was highlighting. You are running away from your own statement. You are not honest so therefore I’m done.
 

4Jesus

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Um...yeah, you win!
h04F96E63

:D

lol. I'm still cross-eyed after writing that. I might need a good whack upside the head to straighten my eyesight out ;) I think that just beat the longest-word world record with that one :)
 
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Marymog

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There is one thing only that will send a person to Hell.

Not receiving Christ.
Thank you.

Will a person go to hell if they blaspheme against the Holy Ghost and refuse to repent?

Mary