What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Giuliano]

Hi Giuliano, I'm sorry, I forgot to respond to your post earlier with all the other posts. I'll go back and try to find it now to respond to.

Thanks, but no rush.

 

[Grailhunter]

Don't you think you had better find out??? I mean, if you want to go to the highest heaven? Because if you don't toe the LDS line, you ain't getting there according to their doctrine.

And again, you insist on implying that I believe that God has been inactive for the last 2000 years! Sheesh!

I like the Sheesh thing! Thank you Love humor. I fellowship with many denominations, there are things that they believe that I do not. The Catholics have some wild things going on. There are people on this forum that want to merge Judaism with Christianity. Noah was saved by faith.... Belief control does not work. Understanding Mormonism, ask why they think that is true. I have read their books, I can't say I believe in all of it, but I don't think all of them do either.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I fellowship with many denominations, there are things that they believe that I do not. The Catholics have some wild things going on.

Now this is surely a cut and paste from at least 20 comments you've made on this thread.

We're talking basic doctrine here. Even a child can understand basic Christian doctrine, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Not only does basic Mormon doctrine contradict the Bible, but later "revelations" by Mormon prophets contradict earlier "revelations." This is a problem. Bible prophets did not contradict one another. God would not send a prophet to contradict THE Prophet of all prophets--Jesus Christ! But Joseph Smith and subsequent LDS prophets have contradicted Jesus Christ in BIG ways!
.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Is this accurate?

There are three degrees of glory in heaven:​

• Celestial Glory
  Reserved for the most obedient Mormons, those who were priests, married in LDS temples, etc., among other works. This level has full access to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Mormons who obtain this level become their own gods: conceiving spirit babies and populating planets.
• Terrestrial Glory
  Reserved for good people, including Mormons who did not quite live up to expectations. There is no access to Heavenly Father here, only Jesus Christ.
• Telestial Glory
  The lowest of glories reserved for those who come out of spirit prison.

Source: Salvation - | - Mormon Handbook

Editting this to be accurate and still keep it short:
LDS Christians believe that all people shall have eternal life and almost all have incomprehensible happiness in the eternities. The almost all exclude Satan, his disciples, Cain, blatant Holy Ghost deniers, etc.

As to rest of the >99.999%, you got:
-Those that liars, sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers, etc whom still reject Christ: shall still live for eternity in happiness and glory that is beyond our mortal comprehension (just much much less than other people's). They will also have the presence of the Holy Spirit.
-Those only half-heartedly accept Christ. They still live forever, dancing with Christ, in beyond-beyond mind blowing happiness and glory.
-Those that have fully embraced Christ/God and shall be joint heirs with Him, with even higher happiness and glory in Him.

 

[Grailhunter]

Most of those variations are in the New Testament since the Jews took greater care with their books. I doubt you would find one Hebrew text that reads "Son of Righteousness" in Malachi 4:2, yet that is how Joseph Smith rendered it.

3 Nephi 25:2 The Son of Righteousness Shall Arise with Healing in His Wings:

https://stepbystep.alancminer.com/3_nephi_25

According to John Pratt, a clear example of the rising sun representing Christ is the prophecy that unto the righteous "shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings." (Malachi 4:2) This reference to the sun so clearly meant Christ that the phrase "Son of Righteousness" is interchangeable with it. (see 3 Nephi 25:2; 2 Nephi 26:9) Nephi pointed out that Christ would rise "with healing in his wings" at His resurrection. (see 2 Nephi 25:13) Mark wrote that when the women arrived at the tomb, the sun had risen, and Christ also had risen (see Mark 16:2,9).

This explanation makes me smile, to say the least. Only someone writing in English would make that mistake, hearing "Sun" but thinking it was "Son". The words in Hebrew aren't remotely the same; and I really doubt that whatever language Smith claimed to be translating from would have them the same.

Mark is not clear about the exact time:

Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
. . . .
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

We learn elsewhere that he did not rise at sunrise but was already risen before that.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
. . . .
6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Let's face it. Smith goofed, and Pratt's explanation only adds another error. by making another assertion that contradicts the Biblical accounts.

I understand the interpretational errors and some of that can be expected. What I am talking about is the intent to alter. I am talking about the large categorical changes and the replacement of scripture with different theological concepts. The removal of God the Father's and God the Son's name in the OT and NT. The replacement of the "Y" in the persons, places, and things with "J".
The Christianizing of the OT. The insertion of periscope scriptures, and The Comma Johanneum Addition.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Editting this to be accurate and still keep it short:
LDS Christians believe that all people shall have eternal life and almost all have incomprehensible happiness in the eternities. The almost all exclude Satan, his disciples, Cain, blatant Holy Ghost deniers, etc.

As to rest of the >99.999%, you got:
-Those that liars, sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers, etc whom still reject Christ: shall still live for eternity in happiness and glory that is beyond our mortal comprehension (just much much less than other people's). They will also have the presence of the Holy Spirit.
-Those only half-heartedly accept Christ. They still live forever, dancing with Christ, in beyond-beyond mind blowing happiness and glory.
-Those that have fully embraced Christ/God and shall be joint heirs with Him, with even higher happiness and glory in Him.

Thanks for explaining this. Just one question. Is the "Celestial glory" reserved for Mormons who fulfill certain LDS requirements, like tithing and the temple endowment?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Ok, responding to Giuliano's post, including some of the history of it.

It confuses me more to be frank. Did God always have a glorified physical body? If not, how did He get it? There isn't an answer to that, you say. Then I wonder how anything could be added onto or subtracted from God. Would God cease to be God if He lost this glorified physical body?

The phrase itself doesn't make too much sense to me since I don't see matter as being capable of being glorified. It is changed. Thus Jesus' body, although it could be solid if he wished, could appear and disappear as he wished after the Resurrection.

My major objection to this idea however is the idea that God has His own physical body. I believe God is a Spirit Who can dwell in all men. While I have other problems with the Book of Mormon, this idea of God having a physical body is the major reason I can't accept Smith as a prophet.

David wrote that God's plan is to impart His Glory to men.

Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

We read too about how the Glory of God filled the Temple when Solomon consecrated it. Glorification then is a process where God imparts some of His Glory to a person or object. Then too there is a way men can glorify God -- when men receive Light from God, they can shine to other men, sharing the Light received to others so they can see something of the Glory of God and see that God is real. I find it hard to understand how or why God would glorify Himself.

I not completely understanding you here.

Do you believe that God the Son (Jesus ) rose from the dead with a glorified perfect body?
Do you find that belief to be strange or hard to understand?

My guess is his body was glorified in part before the crucifixion; but only three disciples were permitted to see its Glory. It was further glorified later.

Ok, so I was confused by your post earlier, and I'm admittedly still confused (sorry!).

LDS Christians do believe that a physical thing can be glorified. God the Son's (Christ) was physically born, lived in an imperfect body, died, and was resurrected with a glorified one. This doesn't mean that He changed in the core of who He was/is, rather it is a change in state of his body.

I hope that remotely addressed what your concern was, and apologize if I'm just off base and completely misunderstanding where your confusion/concern/I-don't-know is.

 

[Grailhunter]

Now this is surely a cut and paste from at least 20 comments you've made on this thread.

We're talking basic doctrine here. Even a child can understand basic Christian doctrine, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Not only does basic Mormon doctrine contradict the Bible, but later "revelations" by Mormon prophets contradict earlier "revelations." This is a problem. Bible prophets did not contradict one another. God would not send a prophet to contradict THE Prophet of all prophets--Jesus Christ! But Joseph Smith and subsequent LDS prophets have contradicted Jesus Christ in BIG ways!
.

A child....the 3X5 card thing.....the 30,000 some odd denominations....even grownups can't get it. But hold that thought for a moment and I will step back and let you and Jane talk for awhile.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Thanks for explaining this. Just one question. Is the "Celestial glory" reserved for Mormons who fulfill certain LDS requirements, like tithing and the temple endowment?

The above is inaccurate.

What would be accurate to say: the highest glory is those that have fully accepted Christ (whether they did so in this mortal life or afterwards). We are to give our entire heart, mind, and soul to Him. Not just be luke warm or a shallow "yeah I believe" but no real change.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The above is inaccurate.

What would be accurate to say: the highest glory is those that have fully accepted Christ (whether they did so in this mortal life or afterwards). We are to give our entire heart, mind, and soul to Him. Not just be luke warm or a shallow "yeah I believe" but no real change.

So, if a member of LDS has not tithed, he will still be admitted to "highest glory"?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So, if a member of LDS has not tithed, he will still be admitted to "highest glory"?

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there isnone good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I understand the interpretational errors and some of that can be expected. What I am talking about is the intent to alter. I am talking about the large categorical changes and the replacement of scripture with different theological concepts. The removal of God the Father's and God the Son's name in the OT and NT. The replacement of the "Y" in the persons, places, and things with "J".
The Christianizing of the OT. The insertion of periscope scriptures, and The Comma Johanneum Addition.

Since you and @Giuliano seem to be so intent on believing that the English translations of the NT are full of huge errors, you may want to read this because it just ain't so. There are some good accurate translations available. God is able to guide translators to give us accurate translations of His word in every language. Otherwise, how can we trust anything in the Bible?

https://library.dts.edu/Pages/TL/Special/ICBI_1.pdf

 

[Giuliano]

Ok, responding to Giuliano's post, including some of the history of it.




Ok, so I was confused by your post earlier, and I'm admittedly still confused (sorry!).

LDS Christians do believe that a physical thing can be glorified. God the Son's (Christ) was physically born, lived in an imperfect body, died, and was resurrected with a glorified one. This doesn't mean that He changed in the core of who He was/is, rather it is a change in state of his body.

I hope that remotely addressed what your concern was, and apologize if I'm just off base and completely misunderstanding where your confusion/concern/I-don't-know is.

How could God the Father have a similar glorified body?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there isnone good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I hope you know that this doesn't answer my question. This Bible passage does not mention the "highest glory." In fact, the LDS concept of "highest glory" is not in the Bible.

You are sidestepping my yes or no question.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

This quote has to do with with "exaltation in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom." It gives the requirements for this level of exaltation.

"Eternal marriage is essential for exaltation in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, and it is attained only through being sealed by the proper authority in the temple and then living in accordance with the covenants entered into at that time."
~The Eternal Family Teacher Manual, LDS Church, Lesson 15, 2016. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-eternal- family-teacher-manual/lesson-15-eternal-marriage?lang=eng


​

 

[Giuliano]

Since you and @Giuliano seem to be so intent on believing that the English translations of the NT are full of huge errors, you may want to read this because it just ain't so. There are some good accurate translations available. God is able to guide translators to give us accurate translations of His word in every language. Otherwise, how can we trust anything in the Bible?

https://library.dts.edu/Pages/TL/Special/ICBI_1.pdf

I've no problem sifting things out. I trust that a passage is valid and that I understand only if I can see the love in it. If I can't see any love in it, maybe I'm failing to understand it or maybe it shouldn't be that way -- either way, I don't reach conclusions about it.

I wonder if the people who wrote that ever really read their Bibles. The book of Acts contain passages that contradict previous Scriptures. How can people read the Bible and not spot these things? Do they read something and then forget it as soon as they go on to another passage?

I posted one such problem from Hebrews earlier. So far as I know, everyone ignored it. I'll repost it.

It's not the only place in the book of Hebrews where the Old Testament gets cited wrong. I find it hard to believe a Jew writing to other Jews could make this mistake.

Hebrews 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

The manna was not kept in the Ark. Neither was Aaron's rod.

Exodus 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the Lord, to be kept for your generations.
34 As the Lord commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.

Numbers 17:10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a token against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.

1 Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the Lord made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

2 Chronicles 5:10 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put therein at Horeb, when the Lord made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of Egypt.

I am left with the conclusion that a Gentile tampered with the text of the Book of Hebrews.

There are passages that don't belong, and some almost always mistranslated. Exodus 20:19 is a wonderful example of things being translated wrong. It actually says "man is a tree." That is true too. Compare that statement to several things Jesus said, and then "man is a tree" may make more sense.

Revelation 6:8 is sometimes translated correctly but not usually. It should read a "green horse."

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I've no problem sifting things out. I trust that a passage is valid and that I understand only if I can see the love in it. If I can't see any love in it, maybe I'm failing to understand it or maybe it shouldn't be that way -- either way, I don't reach conclusions about it.

I wonder if the people who wrote that ever really read their Bibles. The book of Acts contain passages that contradict previous Scriptures. How can people read the Bible and not spot these things? Do they read something and then forget it as soon as they go on to another passage?

I posted one such problem from Hebrews earlier. So far as I know, everyone ignored it. I'll repost it.

It's not the only place in the book of Hebrews where the Old Testament gets cited wrong. I find it hard to believe a Jew writing to other Jews could make this mistake.

Hebrews 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

The manna was not kept in the Ark. Neither was Aaron's rod.

Exodus 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the Lord, to be kept for your generations.
34 As the Lord commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.

Numbers 17:10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a token against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.

1 Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the Lord made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

2 Chronicles 5:10 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put therein at Horeb, when the Lord made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of Egypt.

I am left with the conclusion that a Gentile tampered with the text of the Book of Hebrews.

There are passages that don't belong, and some almost always mistranslated. Exodus 20:19 is a wonderful example of things being translated wrong. It actually says "man is a tree." That is true too. Compare that statement to several things Jesus said, and then "man is a tree" may make more sense.

Revelation 6:8 is sometimes translated correctly but not usually. It should read a "green horse."

I've noticed that the internet is littered with websites making false claims about errors in the Bible similar to the ones you make here. Would you be willing to read the article I linked to up there somewhere?

 

[Giuliano]

I've noticed that the internet is littered with websites making false claims about errors in the Bible similar to the ones you make here. Would you be willing to read the article I linked to up there somewhere?

I already checked out the site that stated the Bible was inerrant -- from Dallas Theological Seminary.

As for "false claims" about the Bible, feel free to tell me why the Book of Hebrews says the manna was kept in the Ark when it wasn't.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

How could God the Father have a similar glorified body?

We there's many things about God His mysteries we don't understand/know right now. I could speculate/guess on that or many other unknowns, but that's a very different thing than God Himself revealing how.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I hope you know that this doesn't answer my question. This Bible passage does not mention the "highest glory." In fact, the LDS concept of "highest glory" is not in the Bible.

LDS Christians aren't Sola Biblia.

You are sidestepping my yes or no question.

When the young rich man asked Jesus "what lack I yet?" Jesus instructed him to "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (emphasis mine)

We are likewise instructed to be willing to give ALL that we have to Christ. Some people (like the young rich man) balk and this and refuse to follow Him for love of riches or other things.