Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

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charity

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In another thread, the subject of water baptism has intervened into the subject of the thread, and threatens to divert (The Hope Of The World). This subject can be a contentious one, but I hope it can be approached with love on all sides.

On the side of the necessity for water baptism for salvation, certain verses were quoted in that thread by a participant, which could provide a starting point.

John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21


 
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CNKW3

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In another thread, the subject of water baptism has intervened into the subject of the thread, and threatens to divert (The Hope Of The World). This subject can be a contentious one, but I hope it can be approached with love on all sides.

On the side of the necessity for water baptism for salvation, certain verses were quoted, which could provide a starting point.

John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21

The New Testament is clear at what point our sins are forgiven, remitted, freed from, washed away.
Also the Bible is clear when it describes at what point we are raised to walk in newness of life (born again), quickened or made alive (born again), circumcised without hands, sanctified, saved and placed “into Christ”.
Answer this with scripture and you should have your answer.
 

charity

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The New Testament is clear at what point our sins are forgiven, remitted, freed from, washed away.
Also the Bible is clear when it describes at what point we are raised to walk in newness of life (born again), quickened or made alive (born again), circumcised without hands, sanctified, saved and placed “into Christ”.
Answer this with scripture and you should have your answer.

'One Lord, one faith, one baptism,'
(Eph 4:5)

Hi @CNKW3,

The question is not mine, for I have no doubt that water baptism ceased to be a requirement when Israel went away into blindness at the end of the Acts period, during which time two baptisms ran together (water and spirit): but in Ephesians (written following that event) the instruction, concerning the unity of the Spirit, makes clear that there is ONE baptism only, and that has to be of the Spirit.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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CNKW3

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'One Lord, one faith, one baptism,'
(Eph 4:5)

Hi @CNKW3,

The question is not mine, for I have no doubt that water baptism ceased to be a requirement when Israel went away into blindness at the end of the Acts period, during which time two baptisms ran together (water and spirit): but in Ephesians (written following that event) the instruction, concerning the unity of the Spirit, makes clear that there is ONE baptism only, and that has to be of the Spirit.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
So you don’t want to answer that question? So much for 1 pet 3:15. Plus you provide no scriptural support for this wild idea that water baptism ceased to be a requirement?
Then why did Paul keep baptizing in water. He baptized the Ephesians a second time in water and then he tells them there is only one baptism and that it is of the Spirit? Why do people continue to baptize in water today, if there is only one?
When Paul wrote to those in Rome he said that they including himself had been baptized “into Christ” and “raised to walk in newness of life”. (Born again) Here he is clearly describing water baptism. It is a “burial” and a “raising”. Now only the truly blind and defiant will say that this is not water baptism when the the description clearly is. Why would Paul write such a thing if we are no longer water “baptized into Christ” where salvation is found. 2 Tim 2:10
 

Mungo

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(Water) baptism is normative for salvation since Jesus rose from the dead. It's the way Jesus gave us.
He said: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
However God is sovereign and can save people without it if he so chooses.
But we cannot tell God how he must save us. We should do it his way.

It is in baptism - with water (there is no other) - that we are "born from above" (or "born again"; our sins are forgiven; we are made children of God; we enter the New Covenant.
 
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farouk

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(Water) baptism is normative for salvation since Jesus rose from the dead. It's the way Jesus gave us.
He said: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
However God is sovereign and can save people without it if he so chooses.
But we cannot tell God how he must save us. We should do it his way.

It is in baptism - with water (there is no other) - that we are "born from above" (or "born again"; our sins are forgiven; we are made children of God; we enter the New Covenant.
Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter 3. I don't believe in baptismal regeneration.

Clearly from Acts 2.41, people were baptized because they believed the Gospel; they didn't get baptized in order to believe.
 
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Marymog

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In another thread, the subject of water baptism has intervened into the subject of the thread, and threatens to divert (The Hope Of The World). This subject can be a contentious one, but I hope it can be approached with love on all sides.

On the side of the necessity for water baptism for salvation, certain verses were quoted, which could provide a starting point.

John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21
Hi Charity,

I think we can add Matt. 28:19-20, Rom. 6:3–4, and Col. 2:11–12 to the list supporting the necessity of baptism.

Even the 1st century Christians who walked and talked with the Apostles affirmed this in Hermas and the Didache where they showed how important it was by saying that the baptizer should fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved” (Large Catechism 4:6). The theory that it is not necessary began with the false teachers after the Reformation.

My two cents worth....Mary
 

Marymog

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Of course not.
Hi Willie,

Your statement is at odds with Scripture and 2,000 years of Christian history.

I think we can add Matt. 28:19-20, Rom. 6:3–4, and Col. 2:11–12 to the list supporting the necessity of baptism.

Even the 1st century Christians who walked and talked with the Apostles affirmed this in Hermas and the Didache where they showed how important it was by saying that the baptizer should fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved” (Large Catechism 4:6). The theory that it is not necessary began with the false teachers after the Reformation.

Mary
 

Deborah_

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Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

No... and Yes

The problem with both these answers is that the question assumes that baptism is a tick-box activity. Has it been done... or not? And it isn't as simple as that.

I could answer No - on the grounds that we are saved by God's grace, through faith, and not by anything that we do (Ephesians 2:8,9). The thief who professed faith in Jesus while being crucified was not excluded from Paradise on the grounds that he had no baptismal certificate!

But in the other hand, the answer should be Yes - because in Acts baptism is always presented as being compulsory. Peter tells the crowd on the Day of Pentecost that in order to be forgiven they must repent and be baptised (Acts 2:38). Ananias told Saul to have his sins washed away through baptism (Acts 22:16). And Cornelius and his family, despite having already been filled with the Spirit, are expected to be baptised as well! (Acts 10:44-48)

The passage at the very end of Mark's Gospel sums it up: "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16) If you genuinely believe, you will be baptised; if you don't believe, baptism is irrelevant. The New Testament assumes that if you are a believer, you will be baptised; because baptism was normally carried out at the time of conversion, there was no such thing as an unbaptised believer!

What has happened since the New Testament era is that the (baptismal) waters have become muddied. Few if any churches now tell people to get baptised at the time they are converted; they are either baptised as babies (long before they have any faith of their own) or told to wait until they have grown in the faith a bit, or (worst of all) encouraged to regard baptism as optional!

Baptism isn't optional - not because it contributes anything to our salvation in and of itself (I Peter 3:21), but because if I disobey Christ in this very simple matter, how can I possibly claim to be His disciple?
 

Ernest T. Bass

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In another thread, the subject of water baptism has intervened into the subject of the thread, and threatens to divert (The Hope Of The World). This subject can be a contentious one, but I hope it can be approached with love on all sides.

On the side of the necessity for water baptism for salvation, certain verses were quoted, which could provide a starting point.

John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21

Also 1 Corinthians 1:12-13; Galatians 3:27; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; Colossians 2:11-12.

==================

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

The logical implication is that one must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ to avoid being in flaming fire.

1 Corinthians 15:2-4 "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

The gospel Paul preached was the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

--One must obey the gospel per 2 Thess 1:8 to not be in flaming fire.
--The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ per 1 Cor 15:3-4.

Then how does one obey the gospel, that is, obey historical events of Christ's death, burial and resurrection?

Romans 6:3-7 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

In baptism there is a death, burial and resurrection that takes place. The old man of sin dies, buried in a watery grave then 'raised up from' (resurrected) from that watery grave to walk in newness of life (born again).

One has not accepted, obeyed the gospel until water baptized:

Acts of the Apostles 2:41-44

Acts of the Apostles 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:..."

Acts of the Apostles 2:44 "And all that believed were together,..."

(1) Those who are said to have "believed" in v44 are the ones who accepted Peter's gospel words and were baptized in v41. So "believed" in v44 is used as a synecdoche where it includes being baptized. This means "believeth" in John 3:16 would also include baptism. Mark 16:16 clearly ties belief to baptism with the conjunction 'and' making them inseparable.

(2) Those who rejected Peter's gospel message rejected being baptized. Therefore the logical implication of v41 is that rejecting baptism is rejecting the gospel, being baptized is receiving the gospel-obeying the gospel per 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
 
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Enoch111

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On the side of the necessity for water baptism for salvation, certain verses were quoted, which could provide a starting point. John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21
Water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, and the verses which seem to suggest that must be simply interpreted in the light of ALL Gospel truth.
So let's take a closer look at these verses:

WATER IS A METAPHOR FOR THE WORD OF GOD (THE GOSPEL)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

BAPTISM FOLLOWS HARD UPON SALVATION
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (Mk 16:16). [Note: Jesus did NOT say "and is not baptized" in the last clause]
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38) [Note: Acts 10 makes it clear that the gift of the Holy Ghost was given BEFORE water baptism was administered, which clarifies Acts 2:38]

BAPTISM REFLECTS A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD

The like figure [type] whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Pet 3:21)
 

charity

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So you don’t want to answer that question? So much for 1 pet 3:15. Plus you provide no scriptural support for this wild idea that water baptism ceased to be a requirement?
Then why did Paul keep baptizing in water. He baptized the Ephesians a second time in water and then he tells them there is only one baptism and that it is of the Spirit? Why do people continue to baptize in water today, if there is only one?
When Paul wrote to those in Rome he said that they including himself had been baptized “into Christ” and “raised to walk in newness of life”. (Born again) Here he is clearly describing water baptism. It is a “burial” and a “raising”. Now only the truly blind and defiant will say that this is not water baptism when the the description clearly is. Why would Paul write such a thing if we are no longer water “baptized into Christ” where salvation is found. 2 Tim 2:10

Hi @CNKW3,

If you read the OP, I give my reason for starting this thread, and it was not for my benefit. I have no issue with this subject, having researched it thoroughly. So your questions should not be addressed to me, but to those who feel the need to ask the question in the subject heading.

I have stated what I believe regarding this subject in #4.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Enoch111

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Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved” (Large Catechism 4:6).
Martin Luther was confused and (also contradicting himself), since this is the same man who insisted on justification (salvation) by grace through faith. Here is what he said:

At last, by the mercy of God, meditating day and night, I gave heed to the context of the words, namely, "In it the righteousness of God is revealed, as it is written, He who through faith is righteous shall live." There I began to understand that the righteousness of God is that by which the righteous lives by a gift of God, namely by faith. And this is the passive righteousness with which merciful God justifies us by faith, as it is written, "'He who through faith is righteous shall live." Here I felt that I was altogether born again and had entered paradise itself through open gates. There a totally other face of the entire Scripture showed itself to me. Thereupon I ran through the Scriptures from memory. I also found in other terms an analogy, as, the work of God, that is, what God does in us, the power of God, with which He makes us strong, the wisdom of God, with which He makes us wise, the strength of God, the salvation of God, the glory of God.

Martin Luther and Justification By Faith
 

Ernest T. Bass

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I could answer No - on the grounds that we are saved by God's grace, through faith, and not by anything that we do (Ephesians 2:8,9). The thief who professed faith in Jesus while being crucified was not excluded from Paradise on the grounds that he had no baptismal certificate!

I agree with some of the other things you posted but not with what you posted above. Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit one would do to earn salvation. Baptism is not a work of merit done to try and earn salvation, but baptism is a necessary condition God has placed upon his free gift of salvation. There is a difference between working to earn some thing and meeting the condition on a free gift offered to you.

I do not find in the NT where the Bible defines baptism as a work where man is doing the work himself. In Acts 2:38 the verb 'baptized' is passive voice meaning man is passive in water baptism while God is doing the work of removing the body of sin, Colossians 2:11-12. One passively submits himself or herself to God in water baptism whereby God does His work. In a similar fashion, if I go and get a hair cut, then I passively submit myself to barber in his barber's chair while the barber is doing the work of cutting my hair. Again, I am totally passive while the barber is doing the work.

=======

I related this story I think in another thread, but some kind of preacher on the radio was preaching against the necessity of water baptism. He used the flawed argument that in being water baptized one is doing a work and trying to work to earn his salvation, adding to Christ finished work on the cross.
At the end of his program he had a booklet he wanted to give to his listeners. He made sure his radio audience understood that booklet was absolutely free, no obligation to you at all. To get a copy of that FREE booklet just send him your name and address and he would get a FREE booklet out to you immediately.
Ironically he understood that you submitting you name and address to him did not take away from the freeness of his booklet. But you submitting your name and address was a necessary condition that must be met in order for you to get a FREE copy of his book. Yet he would not apply this same simple logic to water baptism. That you submitting to water baptism is a necessary condition to receive the free gift of salvation and does not take away from the freeness of salvation.

=======

The thief is not an example of NT gospel salvation, Hebrews 9;16-17; Romans 10:9; Romans 6:3-4; Mark 9:6. (I can go into more detail on these verses if you like for me to). Furthermore, the "thief argument" is based on an unprovable ASSUMPTION the thief had never been baptized. There is no verse in the Bible that states with certainty the thief had never been baptized.
 

Willie T

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This whole silly thread discounts death-bed conversions, the acceptance of Christ during battle, confession of belief prior to being executed, any coming to Christ during the moments prior to the 9/11 Twin Towers falling... or the saving of anyone on those three planes that day... or of anyone in any of the thousands of plane crashes that have occurred over the years.

Water Baptism is totally impossible in all of those incidents, and hundreds of thousands of others.

Acting like we are even remotely capable of forcing the "requirement" of some kind of legalistic performance of a ritual upon another to meet our imagined criteria of Belief is outlandishly foolish.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Matt 28:19-20

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen
.

Mark 16:15-16

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
.


From Matthew's and Mark's account of the great commission, the baptism of the great commission:
--done in the name of, that is, by the authority of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost
--it is commanded
--it is administered by disciples (humans)
--it saves
--it is to be taught to new disciples (perpetually taught till end of the world)
--it is the means by which disciples are made
--it lasts till the end of the world.


From the above facts given by Matthew and Mark, these facts eliminate baptism with the Holy Ghost as being the one baptism of Eph 4:5 for none of the above facts are true of baptism with the Holy Ghost.

--From 2 Thess 1:8 one must obey the gospel to not be in flaming fire.
--1 Cor 15:3-4 the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ.
--In Rom 6:3-7 when one is water baptized there is a death burial and resurrection that takes place hence one obeys the gospel when water baptized.

There is no obeying the gospel, [no death burial and resurrection] in baptism with the Holy Ghost, nor in 'faith only' nor in saying a 'sinner's prayer' nor in death bed conversions
 
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CharismaticLady

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I've been baptized four times. Once by sprinkling when I was a baby, that I didn't even know about for over 40 years, then twice by immersion, but for the wrong reasons, then a final time, the only one that counted after I was baptized with the Holy Spirit and cleansed of all my sin. It was the Spirit who told me to be baptized in water out of a good conscience.

1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

I find trying to reason out and justify why they shouldn't obey God, scary. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
 
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Mungo

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Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter 3.

John 3:5 says water and Spirit.

I don't believe in baptismal regeneration.

I do. See Titus 3:5
Again water and Spirit.

Clearly from Acts 2.41, people were baptized because they believed the Gospel; they didn't get baptized in order to believe.

I don't suggest they do. But I believe they need to do both just as Jesus said in Mk 16:16
 

Mungo

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I've been baptized four times. Once by sprinkling when I was a baby, that I didn't even know about for over 40 years, then twice by immersion, but for the wrong reasons, then a final time, the only one that counted, after I was baptized with the Holy Spirit and cleansed of all my sin. It was the Spirit who told me to be baptized in water out of a good conscience.

1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

I find trying to reason out and justify why they shouldn't obey God, scary. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Good quote - baptism save us.