Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

[justbyfaith]

You created a lot of smoke but didn't address my question. Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

I will also ask you a question: Is the Sermon on the Mount to be obeyed?

Plus there was another question you failed to answer in #(351). Concerning (Philipians 3:9), are you willing to say imputed righteousness is not your own?

Concerning Philippians 3:9, the righteousness of faith is not only imputed; and yes, it does not originate from me; while it is a free gift of God and therefore, once I have received it, it is mine.
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You have failed to answer my question concerning 1 John 3:7. Therefore, I will post it again below.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Stranger,

And Romans 5:19 and 1 John 3:7 are to be taken together (while I still expect you to deal with 1 John 3:7 as the third of three verses that I have been giving to you to contemplate). In Romans 5:19, through the obedience of one many are made righteous. This is not only a declaration of righteousness without an actual righteousness being present in the person's life.

For even with the concept that we are declared righteous apart from actually being righteous, you must deal with the concept that it is impossible for God to lie (a biblical concept, see Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2). And since this is the case, if God says someone is righteous, they are actually righteous. (He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17) thus creating the reality of the thing that He has now declared).

It all comes down to what you think actual righteousness is. Is it practical and is it relevant? Does it work itself out in our behaviour? Or, is God telling a giant fib in saying that the person is righteous when in all reality he continues to be the worst of sinners in the practical sense?

In 1 John 3:7,

1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Please expound upon this verse word by word, and explain to me how you think this is speaking of mere imputed righteousness in light of the word in the middle, "doeth".

Because I believe that it defines a righteous person as someone who lives out righteousness in a practical way.

I think that in order to come up with the concept that this verse is speaking of mere imputed righteousness, you may indeed have to change or pervert the verse itself. Perhaps the original Greek renders it differently?

Little children, let no man deceive you.

 

[Stranger]

I will also ask you a question: Is the Sermon on the Mount to be obeyed?



Concerning Philippians 3:9, the righteousness of faith is not only imputed; and yes, it does not originate from me; while it is a free gift of God and therefore, once I have received it, it is mine.
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You have failed to answer my question concerning 1 John 3:7. Therefore, I will post it again below.

You didn't answer either question.

Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

Concerning (Philippians 3:9), are you willing to say imputed righteousness is not your own?

No need to address your third legalistic pillar, (1 John 3:7), till we finish with your second pillar, (Matt. 5:6). So, answer the questions.

Stranger

 

[justbyfaith]

You created a lot of smoke

Where there's smoke there's fire...

Mat 3:10, And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12, Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

[justbyfaith]

Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

Is the Sermon on the Mount to be obeyed? (see Matthew 7:24-27)

Concerning (Philippians 3:9), are you willing to say imputed righteousness is not your own?

In Philippians 3:9, the righteousness of faith is not only imputed. And yes, it does not originate from me; while it is the free gift of God to me and therefore because I have received it, it is mine.

No need to address your third legalistic pillar, (1 John 3:7), till we finish with your second pillar, (Matt. 5:6). So, answer the questions.

First of all, these are not pillars, but strikes of the sword of the Spirit against your false doctrine (that righteousness is only imputed and never imparted).

Secondly, Matthew 5:6 was the first scripture that I brought up to you.

Romans 5:19 was the second.

And 1 John 3:7 was the third.

I think that you don't want to deal with 1 John 3:7 because it is too hard for you to do so adequately.

I gave the three scriptures in question together and expect them to be answered as a group that exists together.

But since you want to pick them apart one-by-one, I don't think that we will ever get to 1 John 3:9 because you cannot disprove the first two scriptures that I gave.

It's a crying shame; because I think that the moment you attempt to address the last verse in the equation, you might begin to see the error of your doctrine.

 

[Stranger]

Is the Sermon on the Mount to be obeyed?



In Philippians 3:9, the righteousness of faith is not only imputed. And yes, it does not originate from me; while it is the free gift of God to me and therefore because I have received it, it is mine.

You have answered the second question. You are not willing to say imputed righteousness is not your own, as Paul says in (Philippians 3:9). As I knew you would not.

The first question remains. Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

Again, no need to go to your third pillar, (1 John 3:7), till we are done here with (Matt. 5:6) Please answer the question.

Stranger

 

[justbyfaith]

You have answered the second question. You are not willing to say imputed righteousness is not your own, as Paul says in (Philippians 3:9). As I knew you would not.

I have said that it does not originate from me; and in this sense it is not my own.

The first question remains. Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

It contains promise (specifically in Matthew 5:6).

Is the Sermon on the Mount to be obeyed? (see Matthew 7:24-27)

Again, no need to go to your third pillar, (1 John 3:7), till we are done here with (Matt. 5:6) Please answer the question.

I have answered your question; but I suspect that we will never get to 1 john 3:7; because you will not go there until you think you have won a victory concerning the other two verses.

However, the third time the sword of the Spirit will do double damage (which is what I think you are afraid of; and therefore you are avoiding answering my question concerning the final verse).

You know that if it succeeds at striking your doctrine, it will demolish it. So you are ducking out and attempting to avoid the blow altogether. But the question remains.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Stranger,

And Romans 5:19 and 1 John 3:7 are to be taken together (while I still expect you to deal with 1 John 3:7 as the third of three verses that I have been giving to you to contemplate). In Romans 5:19, through the obedience of one many are made righteous. This is not only a declaration of righteousness without an actual righteousness being present in the person's life.

For even with the concept that we are declared righteous apart from actually being righteous, you must deal with the concept that it is impossible for God to lie (a biblical concept, see Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2). And since this is the case, if God says someone is righteous, they are actually righteous. (He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17) thus creating the reality of the thing that He has now declared).

It all comes down to what you think actual righteousness is. Is it practical and is it relevant? Does it work itself out in our behaviour? Or, is God telling a giant fib in saying that the person is righteous when in all reality he continues to be the worst of sinners in the practical sense?

In 1 John 3:7,

1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Please expound upon this verse word by word, and explain to me how you think this is speaking of mere imputed righteousness in light of the word in the middle, "doeth".

Because I believe that it defines a righteous person as someone who lives out righteousness in a practical way.

I think that in order to come up with the concept that this verse is speaking of mere imputed righteousness, you may indeed have to change or pervert the verse itself. Perhaps the original Greek renders it differently?

Little children, let no man deceive you.

 

[Stranger]

I have said that it does not originate from me; and in this sense it is not my own.



It contains promise (specifically in Matthew 5:6).



I have answered your question; but I suspect that we will never get to 1 john 3:7; because you will not go there until you think you have won a victory concerning the other two verses.

However, the third time it will do double damage (which is what I think you are afraid of; and therefore you are avoiding answering my question concerning the final verse).

You know that if it succeeds at striking your doctrine, it will demolish it. So you are ducking out and attempting to avoid the blow altogether. But the question remains.

As, I said, you do not want to say the imputed righteousness of Christ is not your own. When you say, 'in this sense', there is the other sense where you say it is yours. Paul say's in (Philippians 3:9) that your own is of the law. You have imputed righteousness, and you have your own which is of the law.

Concerning (Matt. 5:6), that was not the question. The Law contains plenty of promises...if you keep the law. So, again, is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

Stranger

 

[justbyfaith]

As, I said, you do not want to say the imputed righteousness of Christ is not your own. When you say, 'in this sense', there is the other sense where you say it is yours. Paul say's in (Philippians 3:9) that your own is of the law. You have imputed righteousness, and you have your own which is of the law.

There is also the sense in which I say that it is not mine.

In bearing the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that I will violate with my behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23); so in that sense I suppose my righteousness is according to the law. The law and the prophets testify to the fact that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

But my righteousness is not of the law; in the sense that it is not derived from the law, or looking to a set of do's and don'ts in an attempt to keep a standard of righteousness. For I say that through a relationship with Christ, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in my heart and that therefore the righteousness of the law is fulfilled within me (see Romans 8:4).

Concerning (Matt. 5:6), that was not the question. The Law contains plenty of promises...if you keep the law. So, again, is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

You answer my question(s), and I will answer yours. Is the Sermon on the Mount to be obeyed? (see Matthew 7:24-27).

Also, what is the purpose of your question?

If you will not answer the question(s), then I suppose that we are at an impasse; and, unfortunately for you, we will never get to 1 John 3:7 in order that you might see the error of your doctrine.

 

[justbyfaith]

edited #370 (Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?)

 

[Stranger]

There is also the sense in which I say that it is not mine.

In bearing the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that I will violate with my behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23); so in that sense I suppose my righteousness is according to the law. The law and the prophets testify to the fact that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

But my righteousness is not of the law; in the sense that it is not derived from the law, or looking to a set of do's and don'ts in an attempt to keep a standard of righteousness. For I say that through a relationship with Christ, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in my heart and that therefore the righteousness of the law is fulfilled within me (see Romans 8:4).



You answer my question(s), and I will answer yours. Is the Sermon on the Mount to be obeyed? (see Matthew 7:24-27).

Also, what is the purpose of your question?

If you will not answer the question(s), then I suppose that we are at an impasse; and, unfortunately for you, we will never get to 1 John 3:7 in order that you might see the error of your doctrine.

Because you have a sense where it is not yours but it is yours, then you admit that the righteousness imputed to you is yours. And, that you do not agree with Paul who says his own righteousness is of the law. In other words, you are not willing to say with Paul, that your imputed righteousness is not yours. (Philippians 3:9)

If your righteousness is of the law, then it is not imputed. It is yours, by reward. You can't have it both ways.

You speak out of both sides of your mouth. Your righteousness is according to law but not of the law. Please. The fruit of the Spirit and the love of God in your heart, has nothing to do with imputation. Sounds so spiritual though. Keep painting that facade.

I have asked you questions and you refuse to answer. So you now continue to say if you don't answer mine I won't answer yours. Though yours are later. OK.

I will answer yours just to force you to answer mine. Yes, the Sermon on the Mount is to obeyed by those to whom it is addressed. The Sermon on the Mount is to be obeyed because it is law.

The purpose of my question is to get your to admit that the Sermon on the Mount is Law, as I showed you. Which you do not want to do.

So, there. I have answered your questions. Now, answer mine. Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

Stranger

 

[justbyfaith]

The fruit of the Spirit and the love of God in your heart, has nothing to do with imputation.

But it has everything to do with impartation.

Realize, brother, that we are not only talking about the subjects that you want to limit the conversation to.

So, there. I have answered your questions. Now, answer mine. Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

No; for it contains promise (example: Matthew 5:6).

will answer yours just to force you to answer mine. Yes, the Sermon on the Mount is to obeyed by those to whom it is addressed. The Sermon on the Mount is to be obeyed because it is law.

So, the law is to be obeyed?

If we obey the law, does that not imply imparted righteousness?

For otherwise, we are being righteous on our own and that would be as filthy rags.

Nevertheless, scripture declares that the righteousness which is of God by faith (Philippians 3:9); which is an imparted righteousness: is fine linen, clean and white (Revelation 19:8).

My point is that if we are only imputed righteousness and it is never imparted, then there is no such thing as real righteousness; only God's looking at us through rose-colored glasses.

And He does indeed look at us through rose-colored glasses.

But I would say that if you merely understand 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv) correctly, you would realize that there is a practical aspect to being born again.

We are not only forgiven or justified; but the Holy Spirit also sanctifies us.

2Th 2:13, But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[justbyfaith]

2Pe 3:13, Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 5:19, For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[Stranger]

But it has everything to do with impartation.

Realize, brother, that we are not only talking about the subjects that you want to limit the conversation to.



No; for it contains promise (example: Matthew 5:6).



So, the law is to be obeyed?

If we obey the law, does that not imply imparted righteousness?

For otherwise, we are being righteous on our own and that would be as filthy rags.

Nevertheless, scripture declares that the righteousness which is of God by faith (Philippians 3:9); which is an imparted righteousness: is fine linen, clean and white (Revelation 19:8).

My point is that if we are only imputed righteousness and it is never imparted, then there is no such thing as real righteousness; only God's looking at us through rose-colored glasses.

And He does indeed look at us through rose-colored glasses.

But I would say that if you merely understand 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv) correctly, you would realize that there is a practical aspect to being born again.

We are not only forgiven or justified; but the Holy Spirit also sanctifies us.

2Th 2:13, But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Containing a promise does not make it of grace. The law presents promises. (Josh. 8:34) What now? Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

Yes, Law is to be obeyed. That is it's nature. And your righteousness is revealed by it. (Philippians 3:9) "mine own righteousness, which is of the law."

See, You admit the Sermon on the Mount is Law when you say, 'if we obey the law, does that not imply imparted righteousness'. Yet you say 'no' when asked if the Sermon on the mount is Law. You are sewing confusion.

You want to say your obedience to law implies 'imparted' righteousness. But it doesn't. It reveals your righteousness.

Well, imputed righteousness is actually God seeing us only in Christ. Only in view of His righteousness. Only through those blood colored glasses. I don't want it any other way.

Doesn't do much for your ego, or pride in keeping the law. But it keeps you.

What was Israel's righteousness under the law? Not to good was it. Started out with the Golden calf and never got much better. But what did God say concerning Israel. (Numbers 23:20-21) "Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel; the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them."

Stranger

 

[justbyfaith]

Containing a promise does not make it of grace.

I beg to differ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Okay, for the sake of continuing on, I will concede Matthew 5:6 and Romans 5:19.

In the hopes that you will now expound for me 1 John 3:7 in light of Matthew 5:6 and Romans 5:19.

Because of course you have still not answered these verses adequately to be able to defend your position that righteousness is imputed only.

The question remains from above; which I will post again below.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Stranger,

And Romans 5:19 and 1 John 3:7 are to be taken together (while I still expect you to deal with 1 John 3:7 as the third of three verses that I have been giving to you to contemplate). In Romans 5:19, through the obedience of one many are made righteous. This is not only a declaration of righteousness without an actual righteousness being present in the person's life.

For even with the concept that we are declared righteous apart from actually being righteous, you must deal with the concept that it is impossible for God to lie (a biblical concept, see Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2). And since this is the case, if God says someone is righteous, they are actually righteous. (He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17) thus creating the reality of the thing that He has now declared).

It all comes down to what you think actual righteousness is. Is it practical and is it relevant? Does it work itself out in our behaviour? Or, is God telling a giant fib in saying that the person is righteous when in all reality he continues to be the worst of sinners in the practical sense?

In 1 John 3:7,

1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Please expound upon this verse word by word, and explain to me how you think this is speaking of mere imputed righteousness in light of the word in the middle, "doeth".

Because I believe that it defines a righteous person as someone who lives out righteousness in a practical way.

I think that in order to come up with the concept that this verse is speaking of mere imputed righteousness, you may indeed have to change or pervert the verse itself. Perhaps the original Greek renders it differently?

Little children, let no man deceive you.

 

[Stranger]

I beg to differ.

I just showed you. (Josh. 8:34)

You like to 'beg to differ'. You like to 'contend'. But you never have any basis. Scripture is against you.

So, because you base your 'no' on the wrong assumption, your 'no' is an invalid answer. Again, is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?

Please answer.

Stranger