Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
James was clear, but you apparently are not.

"Belief" pertains to the heart, but works (actions) are not "belief." James spoke of what grows out of the good ground of belief. But works is not the measure of salvation...it is simply a natural response in this worldly setting. Doing good works is good. But being "natural", works have nothing to do with the kingdom or salvation...for perfection require nothing. Salvation is perfection in God.
Wrong.

James shows that true faith has TWO components:
Belief and Obedience/Works.

If ALL you have is belief – you do NOT have true faith.
If ALL you have is works – you do NOT have true faith.
It is a marriage of the two.

True faith requires your cooperation with god’s grace. This is precisely why Paul states that we are co-workers/cooperators (sunergeo) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1).

It is ALSO why he said that LOVEnot Faith is the greatest virtue (1 Cor. 13:13).
 

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You pick and chose of scripture and avoid the full Context. Peter was describing what happen in Joppa in a dream and how he was told by God to go to the gentiles. When He entered the house of those gentiles.......

That is back in Acts 10:46-48
The Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit
…46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.…

If the gentile after had refused Water Baptism they would have been cut off. They would have never done that. And God giving the gentiles the holy Spirit in the form of tongues, was encouragement for Peter to accept the gentile into the fold. It was not customary , this order, but was essential to help Peter who was a Jew for the Jews. He and the Jews who went with him needed a little push to know it is the Father's will to accept the gentiles. It in no way makes light of the necessity of water baptism.That is why Peter says this:47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!”
But as I said, if they did not really believe , they would be like Protestants and would not have received the Holy Spirit to begin with. But since they REALLY BELIEVED THE GOSPEL (THE GOOD NEWS), they sent for Peter through prayer to God to be BAPTIZED BY HIM IN WATER. That was the purpose of the gentile's prayer. And they Got that and more! God answered the gentile's prayer and called Peter and told Him to EAT , while showing Peter all that which Jews saw as unclean. The gentile wanted to be part of the covenant, it was God's desire when he made the promise to Abraham , that they should be.
Genesis 17:4-
"As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.

Recap :why did the gentile pray? To have Peter come to them and baptize them with water in the Holy Spirit. Why did God say yes to their request: Because of His promise to Abraham. Why did Peter go?, because God told him. Why did Peter need encouragement? Because he was a jew for the Jews and needed a little push to fulfill the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD!
Acts 10:47 KJV
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


Tecarta BibleYou stated earlier that belief and water baptism preceded salvation. This is false. The only thing in my opinion that precedes salvation is belief, and even that is a gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

CovenantPromise

Active Member
Sep 14, 2019
718
135
43
52
Northeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
...and the dying thief was promised paradise by the Lord Jesus without being baptised...
He was promised and was baptized by Christ Himself.
YES! Even the thief on the cross was baptized by Christ's Word which like the rain and snow comes back to him fruitful. Those whom the graves gave up too were baptized at Christ's crucifixion. I have had intense debate with many who disagree with the language of Isaiah. I disagree with the doctrine of the "Baptism of Desire".

I believe God reveals exactly how His Word goes forth. In Isaiah 55. Many disagree with the scriptures. Protestants deny the obvious language of
John 3:5
5Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
And many Catholics deny the necessity of Doctrine devised, needing to line up with the language of scripture.
2Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

These maxims always need to be applied by Christians. Men's doctrines, when formulated must align with what the scriptures say. Things like (a priest can be in mortal sin can serve at God's altar), and (the Baptism of Desire), do not lend themselves to being aligned with the Holy Word.
Baptism of Desire:
Baptism of desire (Latin: Baptismus flaminis) is a teaching of the Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church and Roman Catholic Church explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian Sacrament because of death, nevertheless receive the fruits of Baptism at the moment of death ...

It is just this simple: When looking to create a doctrine one must look at the equation and sum of the written WORD first. Then ask himself does this doctrine I am devising gel with what is Christ's clear message. If the equation of Christ's message is TRULY, TRULY ,VERILY,VERILY most assuredly ,a“Timeless truth I am telling you: “ then that is a clear equation that "The Baptism of Desire " does not align with. (You will see what I am saying as you read further on). Clearly Christ means what He says. That is a timeless truth, very simply -at no period IN TIME , which death and ALL UNFORTUNATE circumstance come about during, will change His MAXIMS. Therefore , one can easily dismiss this doctrine called "The Baptism of Desire".

Why would the sum be, the thief on the cross WAS NOT BAPTIZED, when it contradicts the obvious equation? It is clear, the thief was baptized based on Christ's language and PROMISE, which truly, truly, verily, verily, a timeless truth means. So it is as the prophet Isaiah reveals from God, for God spoke through Him:
Isaiah 55:10-11
10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven
and do not return without watering the earth,
making it bud and sprout,
and providing seed to sow and food to eat,
11so My word that proceeds from My mouth
will not return to Me empty,
but it will accomplish what I please,
and it will prosper where I send it.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English John 3:5
Yeshua answered and said to him: “Timeless truth I am telling you: “If a person is not born from water and The Spirit, it is impossible that he shall enter the Kingdom of God.
John 3:5
5Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Truly , truly means He promises and means what He says. He would have to make good on His own words because of who He is. If he says something, He must do it. Certain Catholics disagree with that. I think it is because they do not want to admit they are wrong . They would rather forgo truth for denominational pride. That's a shame. They should be more like Peter and accept their admonishment. Peter was very humble. Too bad those who claim to be built on that very rock do not follow His lead.

Numbers 23:
19God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
John 3:5
5Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly,( means I promise you) I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


Hebrews 13:
Christ's Unchanging Nature

…7Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you (LIKE ISAIAH and ALL THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES AND FRIENDS OF). Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them.…

I am 100% correct about the "Baptism of Desire " just as I am correct in knowing, water baptism is a necessity for salvation.

Mathew 5:18
18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Christ's word went forth like rain and snow and baptized that thief because of who Christ is-THAT MEANS NOT DOUBLE MINDED or a LIAR and He does not change His mind.
Certain people need to get off their high horses and start riding into discussions meek and humble on a donkey.

God Bless!
 

CovenantPromise

Active Member
Sep 14, 2019
718
135
43
52
Northeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Acts 10:47 KJV
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


Tecarta BibleYou stated earlier that belief and water baptism preceded salvation. This is false. The only thing in my opinion that precedes salvation is belief, and even that is a gift of the Holy Ghost.
No, clearly.;)
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
...and the dying thief was promised paradise by the Lord Jesus without being baptised...
Water Baptism is the normative means for the forgiveness of sins and salvation (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Col. 2:11-15, 3 Pet 3:21).

HOWEVER – God can and DOES make exceptions. Remember what He told Moses:
Exod 33:19, Rom. 9:15
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."


the Thief came to Christ while he was nailed to a cross – and therefore, unable to be baptized. Millions of unborn babies are aborted each year without being Baptized.
It is GOD’S will and HIS prerogative to show them mercy - not your will.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is about faith and works:
James 2:
17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that God is one.Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?g 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

Faith and works are ONE as GOD is ONE!
Again, James was clear, but you apparently are not.

That all addresses "faith" and "righteousness", but the subject here is "salvation."

Salvation may bring works, but works do not bring salvation. It is a gift from God.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wrong.

James shows that true faith has TWO components:
Belief and Obedience/Works.

If ALL you have is belief – you do NOT have true faith.
If ALL you have is works – you do NOT have true faith.
It is a marriage of the two.

True faith requires your cooperation with god’s grace. This is precisely why Paul states that we are co-workers/cooperators (sunergeo) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1).

It is ALSO why he said that LOVEnot Faith is the greatest virtue (1 Cor. 13:13).
That is not the subject here.

The subject is "salvation", and your bringing "faith" and "works" into it, as opposed to "belief", is the problem. You have misrepresented the truth by getting off the path.

Salvation may bring works, but works do not bring salvation.
 

CovenantPromise

Active Member
Sep 14, 2019
718
135
43
52
Northeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Again, James was clear, but you apparently are not.

That all addresses "faith" and "righteousness", but the subject here is "salvation."

Salvation may bring works, but works do not bring salvation. It is a gift from God.
You divide the scriptures like the pagan soldiers of Rome divided Christ's garments. Can it be said that you are a soldier of God? UMMMM NO! As if :rolleyes:you could divide Christ Himself. ALL IS SALVATION and actually Salvation is all inclusive of FAITH and WORKS which are ONE AS GOD IS ONE and all is RIGHTEOUSNESS and none of this could possibly be outside of SALVATION. Even ,the thief on the cross had a work in faith, and that was his utterance to Christ to remember Him when Christ comes into His kingdom. There is nothing outside of salvation for those who believe. All is one just as -not one bone was broken in Christ's body. You now act like all faith and works called RIGHTEOUSNESS is outside of Salvation . MAN! you people go from bad to worse!

Psalm 83:
Do Not Be Still, O God
1A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. O God, do not keep silent; do not remain speechless; do not be still, O God. 2See how Your enemies rage, how your foes have reared their heads. 3With cunning they scheme against Your people and conspire against those You cherish,…
 

Nondenom40

Active Member
May 21, 2019
493
246
43
Illinois
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You divide the scriptures like the pagan soldiers of Rome divided Christ's garments. Can it be said that you are a soldier of God? UMMMM NO! As if :rolleyes:you could divide Christ Himself. ALL IS SALVATION and actually Salvation is all inclusive of FAITH and WORKS which are ONE AS GOD IS ONE and all is RIGHTEOUSNESS and none of this could possibly be outside of SALVATION. Even ,the thief on the cross had a work in faith, and that was his utterance to Christ to remember Him when Christ comes into His kingdom. There is nothing outside of salvation for those who believe. All is one just as -not one bone was broken in Christ's body. You now act like all faith and works called RIGHTEOUSNESS is outside of Salvation . MAN! you people go from bad to worse!

Psalm 83:
Do Not Be Still, O God
1A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. O God, do not keep silent; do not remain speechless; do not be still, O God. 2See how Your enemies rage, how your foes have reared their heads. 3With cunning they scheme against Your people and conspire against those You cherish,…
Where is it said the thief on the cross 'had a work in faith?' Or are you just making it up?
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You divide the scriptures like the pagan soldiers of Rome divided Christ's garments. Can it be said that you are a soldier of God? UMMMM NO! As if :rolleyes:you could divide Christ Himself. ALL IS SALVATION and actually Salvation is all inclusive of FAITH and WORKS which are ONE AS GOD IS ONE and all is RIGHTEOUSNESS and none of this could possibly be outside of SALVATION. Even ,the thief on the cross had a work in faith, and that was his utterance to Christ to remember Him when Christ comes into His kingdom. There is nothing outside of salvation for those who believe. All is one just as -not one bone was broken in Christ's body. You now act like all faith and works called RIGHTEOUSNESS is outside of Salvation . MAN! you people go from bad to worse!

Psalm 83:
Do Not Be Still, O God
1A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. O God, do not keep silent; do not remain speechless; do not be still, O God. 2See how Your enemies rage, how your foes have reared their heads. 3With cunning they scheme against Your people and conspire against those You cherish,…
No, you are mixing metaphors and passages as it suits you in spite of the truth. But bone is bone and marrow is marrow.

But why stop there? You go on to condemn yourself by making matters personal and making judgments about matters which are already clarified in scripture. Which you apparently have not reconciled, as if James spoke against Paul, or God against himself, and as if works could save a man.
 

CovenantPromise

Active Member
Sep 14, 2019
718
135
43
52
Northeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where is it said the thief on the cross 'had a work in faith?' Or are you just making it up?
Psalm 139:
O LORD, You have searched me

and known me. 2You know when I sit and when I rise;

You understand my thoughts from afar. 3You search out my path and my lying down;

You are aware of all my ways. 4Even before a word is on my tongue,

You know all about it, O LORD.
5You hem me in behind and before;

You have laid Your hand upon me. 6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,

too lofty for me to attain.
 

CovenantPromise

Active Member
Sep 14, 2019
718
135
43
52
Northeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, you are mixing metaphors and passages as it suits you in spite of the truth. But bone is bone and marrow is marrow.

But why stop there? You go on to condemn yourself by making matters personal and making judgments about matters which are already clarified in scripture. Which you apparently have not reconciled, as if James spoke against Paul, or God against himself, and as if works could save a man.

Oh please , matters of scripture? You do not even believe the scriptures. They are not divided , but your mind is. Clearly I do not put scripture against scripture for they are One as God is One. I am not the one comparing works not in faith ( BEFORE THERE IS BELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST OR simply never in faith at all- never any belief in Jesus Christ.)James is speaking of the faith and works concerning belief in Christ. Paul is talking about how the Jews- who do not believe ,think by all their works which appear good to men, they will be saved, but they are not going to save them no matter how good they appear to men. They appear as they are, as faithless before God because they are not done in belief in Christ.Not complicated. You are the only one who puts scripture against scripture and twisting both James' and Paul's words. :rolleyes: pleeeeeeease !:cool: God is good and His judgements are just and His DOCTRINE ABOVE ALL that which men- not in belief, could ever claim.
 
Last edited:

Nondenom40

Active Member
May 21, 2019
493
246
43
Illinois
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Psalm 139:
O LORD, You have searched me

and known me. 2You know when I sit and when I rise;

You understand my thoughts from afar. 3You search out my path and my lying down;

You are aware of all my ways. 4Even before a word is on my tongue,

You know all about it, O LORD.
5You hem me in behind and before;

You have laid Your hand upon me. 6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,

too lofty for me to attain.
And?
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh please , matters of scripture? You do not even believe the scriptures. They are not divided , but your mind is. Clearly I do not put scripture against scripture for they are One as God is One. I am not the one comparing works not in faith ( BEFORE THERE IS BELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST OR simply never in faith at all- never any belief in Jesus Christ.)James is speaking of the faith and works concerning belief in Christ. Paul is talking about how the Jews who do not believe think by all their works which appear good to men, are not going to save them no matter how good they appear to men. They appear as they are, as faithless before God because they are not done in belief in Christ.Not complicated. You are the only one who puts scripture against scripture and twisting both James' and Paul's words. :rolleyes: pleeeeeeease !:cool: God is good and His judgements are just and His DOCTRINE ABOVE ALL that which men- not in belief, could ever claim.
You are not being honest.

James addressed works, as did Paul. I pointed it out that you might stop accusing me of being divided...and now you divide them as different, and it is okay? Not hardly. You were were off on a tangent of works. But it is not works that pertains to salvation, but rather "belief." And now that you have taken this side trip into works which does not apply to salvation, your only defense is to make personal attacks. It was James words and bringing them up, that was the departure from the context and topic of salvation, an it was Paul's comments that should have stopped any confusion. That is not putting "scripture against scripture and twisting both James' and Paul's words" on my part, but using scripture "for corrections." But, here you are accusing me. Great job!
 

CovenantPromise

Active Member
Sep 14, 2019
718
135
43
52
Northeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Water Baptism is the normative means for the forgiveness of sins and salvation (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Col. 2:11-15, 3 Pet 3:21).

HOWEVER – God can and DOES make exceptions. Remember what He told Moses:
Exod 33:19, Rom. 9:15
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."


the Thief came to Christ while he was nailed to a cross – and therefore, unable to be baptized. Millions of unborn babies are aborted each year without being Baptized.
It is GOD’S will and HIS prerogative to show them mercy - not your will.
Christ himself baptizes the victims of circumstance. Are you saying this is impossible for Him to do? And for Him to do according to His OWN words is not showing Mercy to whom He chooses? You putting what was said to Moses does not mean He does not do according His own words when He has to Himself.
 

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You didn't say anything. Where does it say the thief on the cross had a work of faith?


Galatians 5:22 KJV
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, is she claiming the thief received the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost?
Tecarta Bible
 
  • Like
Reactions: CovenantPromise

CovenantPromise

Active Member
Sep 14, 2019
718
135
43
52
Northeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are not being honest.

James addressed works, as did Paul. I pointed it out that you might stop accusing me of being divided...and now you divide them as different, and it is okay? Not hardly. You were were off on a tangent of works. But it is not works that pertains to salvation, but rather "belief." And now that you have taken this side trip into works which does not apply to salvation, your only defense is to make personal attacks. It was James words and bringing them up, that was the departure from the context and topic of salvation, an it was Paul's comments that should have stopped any confusion. That is not putting "scripture against scripture and twisting both James' and Paul's words" on my part, but using scripture "for corrections." But, here you are accusing me. Great job!


Ephesians 2:9
Alive with Christ
…8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves(works outside of grace- (GRACE); it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. (We are not saved because of works outside of -before we received grace -JESUS CHRIST ,He is the grace which saves when we put faith in Him. Our works outside of Him could not possibly accomplish pleasing God of themselves) 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.…