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Featured Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by charity, Oct 30, 2019.

  1. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 Flowers of May Encounter Team

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    It is about accepting Christ first and foremost of all. As well as when you do be baptized it is washing away your old self and putting on your new life with Christ. Forgetting all behind!
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It does not say, "he that is baptized not shall be damned"...but "he that believeth not shall be damned."

    I conclude that the shall in Mark 16:16 indicates the absolute surety of salvation for those who believe and are baptized; but that the verse does not indicate damnation for the one who believes and is not baptized...such a person may or may not be saved...understand the word "should" in John 3:16. It is not absolute terminology as we find in Mark 16:16 and Romans 10:13.
     
  3. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    Can you then tell me what is the significance of the day of Pentecost when they are told to repent and be baptized? There is no mention of faith there?
     
  4. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'And He said unto them,
    "Go ye into all the world,
    .. and preach the gospel to every creature.
    .... He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
    ...... but he that believeth not shall be damned.'

    And these signs shall follow them that believe;
    .. In My name shall they cast out devils;
    .... they shall speak with new tongues;
    ...... They shall take up serpents;
    ........ and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
    .......... they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    So then after the Lord had spoken unto them,
    He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

    And they went forth, and preached every where,
    the Lord working with them,
    and confirming the word with signs following.

    Amen.'
    (Mark 16:15-20)


    Hello @Getitright,

    Yes, that is quite categorically stated I agree. Yet there is more to be considered than grammar here, before any conclusions regarding these words of our Lord can be made.

    This was the second of three commissions given to the twelve, (or in this case eleven), and was carried out by them that heard Him, as foretold in Matthew 22:4-7, and fulfilled in Mark 16:20, as confirmed in Hebrews 2:3-4. The Acts of the Apostles is the divine record of the fulfilment of this commission, prior to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. This was the ministry of the Apostles so commissioned, and for no one else.

    'How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
    which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
    and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
    God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders,
    and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost,
    according to His own will?

    (Heb 2:3-4)

    Thank you.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  5. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Mark 16:16

    "he that is not baptized" is logically inherent in the phrase "he that believeth not"

    In Mark 16:16a Jesus made a logical progression of steps in making belief a prerequisite before being baptized and baptism a prerequisite before being saved. This means one must believe before he can be baptized meaning an unbeliever cannot be baptized. Therefore in Mark 16:16b when Jesus says "he that believeth not", the "believeth not" already logically includes not being baptized since an unbeliever cannot be baptized.

    Besides, the conjunction "and" ties belief to baptism making them grammatically inseparable.

    John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,..."

    Here, Jesus made hearing a prerequisite to believing and believing a prerequisite to having everlasting life. We logically know then that "he who hearth not" is an unbeliever since hearing is a required prerequisite before one can believe. Likewise, we logically we know "he that believeth not" is unbaptized since belief is a required prerequisite before being baptized.
     
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  6. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
    but he that believeth not shall be damned.'
    (Mar 16:16)

    Hello @Earnest T. Bass,

    With respect, I disagree with your summation.

    Those to whom our Lord gave this charge, were the twelve, whose ministry was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel as was that of our Lord. To the Jew Baptism (ceremonial washing) was a means of identification with, or of setting apart to - either God Himself, the man of His choosing, or to the doctrine imparted, it signified their identification (or belief) (Numbers 8:5-7, and Numbers 8:10-11; Numbers 27:18-23; Exodus 19:3-6, Exodus 19:14-15).

    In Deuteronomy 18:15-22, God tells Moses of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, as a prophet like unto himself: and makes clear with the words, 'I will require it of Him', that should any not receive Him or the Word of God which He uttered, then it would not go unpunished.

    'I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
    like unto thee,
    and will put My Words in His mouth;
    and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.
    And it shall come to pass,
    that whosoever will not hearken unto My words
    which He shall speak in My name,
    I will require it of him.'

    (Deuteronomy 18:18-19)

    During the Gospels and the Acts period opportunity was given to Israel to so do. Baptism was the ceremonial washing which identified them with the Word of God that they believed and were identifying themselves with, concerning the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom He had sent.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
    Pisteuo likes this.
  7. Getitright

    Getitright Member

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    I'm not sure what your point is here.
     
  8. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello again,

    With respect, regarding your last paragraph, it is not true that anyone who has not heard is an unbeliever, he simply has not had the opportunity to hear in order to believe. Romans chapters 1 & 2 make it clear that God takes into consideration on the day when the secrets of men will be judged, whether a person has heard the gospel or not, and judges accordingly. For He, knowing men's hearts, and having foreknowledge, knows what that person would have believed, had he heard.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  9. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Getitright

    The point is that there is a context to take into account, as well as the grammar used, before we can reach a conclusion on anything. In this case, consideration must be given to whom the Lord was speaking, and just what He said in it's entirety, and not base an argument upon one portion of it.

    With respect
    In Christ Jesus
    ChriI
     
  10. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    The gospel (which includes water baptism for remission of sins) went to the Jew first then to the Gentile Romans 1:16. Therefore the water baptism of the great commission (Mark 16:15-16; Matthew 28:19-20) is for all nations, every creature and not just to the Jew. Water baptism o the NT is not a ceremonial washing as in the OT. In the OT they did not have the blood of Christ to remit their sins, therefore they did not have water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, Acts 2:38. All they had was the blood of bulls and goats that could not take away sins as the blood of Christ can in NT baptism.


    Acts 2:38-39 is for both Jew and them afar off (Gentile) not just for the Jews. In Acts 15 the Apostles met to discuss whether circumcision was necessary for the Gentiles to be saved. During this discussion Peter says (Acts 15:11) that Jew and Gentile are saved in a "like manner" way. The like manner way the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved was baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48).
     
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    No mention of water baptism in John 5:24 (or in John 6:47). And these are "verily, verily" statements by our Lord.

    If one believes not, they will be damned. If one believes but is not baptized, they are not necessarily damned. It is not absolutely secure that they are saved; but it is also not absolutely certain that they will be damned as if they believed not.
     
  12. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree. Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing. The logical conclusion is a person who has not heard cannot have faith/cannot believe. Therefore logical implication of Christ's words (John 5:24) is one must first hear BEFORE he can believe. For how can one believe what he has not heard? "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" Romans 10:13-15

    Therefore not hearing logically means unbelief as unbelief means not baptized for what reason would an unbeliever be baptized? I do not see in Romans 1 or 2 where those who have not believed will be saved. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 God will have vengeance upon those who know not God (unbelievers) and who obey not the gospel of Christ. Those Gentiles in Romans 1, even though they did not have the advantages the Jews had (Romans 3:1-2) in a law written down and given to them, those Gentiles are still "without excuse" for their unbelief.
     
  13. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    ---Just because baptism is not specifically mention is salvific verses does not exclude it. Grace or the blood of Christ are not specifically mentioned in all salfvic verse but that does not exclude them from salvation.

    ---John 5:24 does not contradict Mark 16:16. To know how to be saved one must look at ALL salvation verses, look at the all the counsel of God (Acts 20:27) and not cherry pick out just the ones that mention "believe". Taking in consideration both John 5 and Mark 16, to be saved requires one hear, believe, be baptized.

    ---believeth and used in John 3:16 and John 5:24 is a synecdoche (part for the whole) where it includes repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16;16). Those who "believed" in Acts of the Apostles 2:44 were the ones who were baptised in verse 41. hence "believed" in v44 includes baptism.
    Peter says baptism saves in 1 Peter 3:21 but he did NOT say baptism alone saves. Hence "Baptism" in this verse is used as a synecdoche where it includes belief repentance and confession.


    ---"Believeth not" in Mark 16:16b includes not being baptized since an unbeliever cannot be baptized per Mk 16:16a.
     
  14. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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    Repent precedes baptism. Always has, always will. Baptism comes after one believes.

    Acts 2:41
    41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

    Those who received the word were baptized.
     
  15. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Ernest T. Bass,

    * The commission of Matthew 29:19-20 is not the same as that of Mark 16, as the description of it's setting, and the wording of it will show.

    * The water baptism of John the baptist, would have been understood by the Jew of that day, by what they knew from the Old Testament. They were identifying themselves with the word preached by John the Baptist, 'Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.' They were showing that they believed that the Kingdom of God was indeed, 'at hand', and that there was therefore the need for their repentance.(Mark 1:4)

    * With respect, Acts 2:38-39 was Jew related, and regarding Acts 15:11, you really need to read the context, for Peter, was actually pointing out that they, believing Jews, were being saved on the same principle of faith as were the Gentiles, and not by works of law; baptism was not at issue.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Also, in 1 Corinthians 1:17, God did not send Paul to baptize.

    Acts of the Apostles 18:8 may have a bearing on that, however.

    Because it is clear that many of the Corinthians were baptized, just not by Paul.

    So, Paul may have taken the same ideology on baptism that Jesus did in John 4:2.

    However, I do believe that Mark 16:16 is clear: that the one who believes and is not baptized is not necessarily damned.

    For it is written that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2). Paul could have easily said "we have access by faith and baptism into this grace wherein we stand"...he didn't.

    Therefore John 3:16 is faithful in telling us that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  17. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    For there is no respect of persons with God.'

    (Romans 2:6-11)

    'For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
    and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,
    these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,
    their conscience also bearing witness,
    and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another )
    In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ
    according to my gospel.'

    (Romans 2:12-16)


    Hello again, @Ernest T. Bass,

    God will be just, and will deal with everyone appropriately.

    'How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
    and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
    and how shall they hear without a preacher?'

    (Rom 10:14)

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  18. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    The grammar does not indicate that the Holy Spirit imparts spiritual life through the application of the water, which is what some ppl wrongly teach.
     
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  19. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Very searching passage...
     
  20. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hi @farouk,

    Yes, it is. It is also open to misuse though isn't it? For it obviously speaks of those who have not heard the gospel of God concerning His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ: and who, though not having heard, obey the law of conscience within them, and seek to live in a manner which is pleasing to God, the maker of heaven and earth.

    Yes, God in His wisdom knows the secrets of men's hearts, and He is therefore able to judge justly.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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